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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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NitroXAdministrator
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What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination?
      #307398 - 07/11/17 09:38 PM


    The scenario:
  • Tikka 512 SD Combination gun with two combination barrels;
  • One barrel in 12 gauge over a .223;
  • Second barrel in 12 gauge over a 7x65R;
  • I have sets of Tikka/Valmet bridge mounts which can be used;
  • For the .223 I need a scope of decent magnification to head shoot bunnies and foxes at a distance;
  • The .223 also needs to be able to switch from shotgun to rifle quickly;
  • I do not like shooting a shotgun using a scope;
  • The 7x65R does not need to have such an accurate sighting system so a more compromise might be acceptable.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: NitroX]
      #307399 - 07/11/17 09:59 PM

Quote:


    The scenario:
  • Tikka 512 SD Combination gun with two combination barrels;
  • One barrel in 12 gauge over a .223;
  • Second barrel in 12 gauge over a 7x65R;
  • I have sets of Tikka/Valmet bridge mounts which can be used;
  • For the .223 I need a scope of decent magnification to head shoot bunnies and foxes at a distance;
  • The .223 also needs to be able to switch from shotgun to rifle quickly;
  • I do not like shooting a shotgun using a scope;
  • The 7x65R does not need to have such an accurate sighting system so a more compromise might be acceptable.




THE 12 GAUGE / .223 SET OF BARRELS

This would be used on the farm and nearby hills for going for a walk with the gun. Using the single barrel shotgun on rabbits and hares or birds - pigeons, ducks, crows etc. Or a scope for head shooting rabbits, hares, foxes, or sniping crows.

I always desired such a combination. And now really want to get it shooting. The set of barrels needed refitting and this has been done. So time to always use these sets of barrels.


FIRST OPTION

Now what I would like to TRY is swing aside / hinged type mounts for the .223.

I remember Dennis Foster writing about such a setup on his Tikka combo in the 1980's or 70's.

Weaver and Redfield used to make these. I don't believe they do now. Finding usuable ones second hand is probably close to impossible as they would almost all be on existing firearms.

Were they any good? Mixed reports. Some say they didn't return to zero properly. Others say they did.

For a .223 they need to return to zero, pretty spot on. ie head shoot a rabbit at 100m or a fox at 150 m.

With a hinge swing aside scope, would having a scope hanging on the side ruin any sort of balance for shooting the shotgun?

SECOND OPTION

Swing aside mounts do exist for AR15 type systems, but are designed for a signal ring, and for a magnification scope designed to work with red dot sights. And 30mm.

Would one or two of these work? Or is this an impossible solution?

Also the solution needs to be a bridge mount. Pushing two levers or buttons on a two piece mount would be two slow.

THIRD OPTION

Tikka bridge non-QD mounts. These have a knob to turn several times to loosen the base off the barrels.

IMO they are slow to put on and take off.

EWA also makes a very similar one. Not QD at all per reports as they need a tool to turn the knob to take off.

This is a possible solution, though not ideal. I have two sets of these on hand to use.

FOURTH OPTION

QD set of mounts. If a set could be found which can be used on the Tikka/Valmet.

Possibly a biut slow taking on and off. But if faster than the Valmet style mounts might be a solution.

FIFTH OPTION

Dot point sight. Not suitable. Nowhere near accurate enough for small game rifle shooting.

SIXTH OPTION

Variable scope. Use the shotgun with a variable scope on low pwer for the shotgun, and the higher power for the rifle.

With modern scopes, say a 1-6x or something close to 1x at the lower end for the scope.

I prefer shooting a .22 centrefire with at least a 8x scope though.

Don't really like a scope for a shotgun. But could give it a try.

A real compromise solution. A 1-6x or similar scope with suitable reticle, in the Tikka non-QD mounts. Can use the scope at 1x for the shotgun, 6x (prefer higher) for the rifle, OR put in on and off using the non-QD mounts when possible.

Guys, what do you think? Experiences, ideas, comments.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (07/11/17 10:07 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: NitroX]
      #307400 - 07/11/17 10:18 PM


Quote:


    The scenario:
  • Tikka 512 SD Combination gun with two combination barrels;
  • One barrel in 12 gauge over a .223;
  • Second barrel in 12 gauge over a 7x65R;
  • I have sets of Tikka/Valmet bridge mounts which can be used;
  • For the .223 I need a scope of decent magnification to head shoot bunnies and foxes at a distance;
  • The .223 also needs to be able to switch from shotgun to rifle quickly;
  • I do not like shooting a shotgun using a scope;
  • The 7x65R does not need to have such an accurate sighting system so a more compromise might be acceptable.




THE 12 gauge / 7x65R SET OF BARRELS

This would be used on casual hunts going for walk where I expect to encounter small game or medium game. Shotgun on bunnies, ducks and the like, and 7x65R on pigs, goats, deer, roos etc. I don't really do such hunts often. Hunt usually small game at home, where not much likelihood of medium game or specific small game hunts away. Or specific medium game hunts. Tunnel vision approach. Why shoot a rabbit or fox and miss out on a pig or deer? If this was more of a chande at home it would get used a lot.


FIRST OPTION

Swing aside hinged mounts.

Would work if the mounts were available and weren't too bad. The 7 mm does not need to be as precise as the .223.

SECOND OPTION

Same as above.

Swing aside mounts do exist for AR15 type systems, but are designed for a signal ring, and for a magnification scope designed to work with red dot sights. And 30mm.

Would one or two of these work? Or is this an impossible solution?

Also the solution needs to be a bridge mount. Pushing two levers or buttons on a two piece mount would be two slow.

THIRD OPTION

Same as above.

Tikka bridge non-QD mounts. These have a knob to turn several times to loosen the base off the barrels.

IMO they are slow to put on and take off.

EWA also makes a very similar one. Not QD at all per reports as they need a tool to turn the knob to take off.

This is a possible solution, though not ideal. I have two sets of these on hand to use.

FOURTH OPTION

Same as above.

QD set of mounts. If a set could be found which can be used on the Tikka/Valmet.

Possibly a biut slow taking on and off. But if faster than the Valmet style mounts might be a solution.

FIFTH OPTION

Dot point sight.

Would probably work OK as the 7mm at closer ranges might be fine with a red dot sight.

I do prefer a decent scope though. Or one of each. If I had enough mounts spare?


SIXTH OPTION

AGAIN a real possibility.

Variable scope. Use the shotgun with a variable scope on low pwer for the shotgun, and the higher power for the rifle.

With modern scopes, say a 1-4x or 1-6x or something close to 1x at the lower end for the scope.

A 4x or 6x at the high end is fine for a 7x65R.

Don't really like a scope for a shotgun. But could give it a try.

A real compromise solution. A 1-4x or a 1-6x or similar scope with suitable reticle, in the Tikka non-QD mounts. Can use the scope at 1x for the shotgun, 5x or 6x for the rifle, OR put in on and off using the non-QD mounts when possible.

Guys, what do you think? Experiences, ideas, comments.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mchughcb
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Posts: 381
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: NitroX]
      #307431 - 08/11/17 06:55 AM

I have plenty of experience. Id go 1-6 x24 with qd mounts. In a push you should be able to shoot most things on 1x with the shotgun and 6x for rabbits at 100+m.

I use a aimpoint h1 micro most of the time with shotgun and 1.5-6x42 for the rifle hunting most of the time but either can do the job and aimpoint keeps weight down and makes the handling better. I got about 50 hunting videos on youtube if you want to see how effective they are.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: mchughcb]
      #307474 - 08/11/17 04:43 PM

Thanks for your comments and ideas. You are probably one of the main users of combinations currently on the forums.

I mentioned a 1-6x. In reality I don't like these overly large scopes. Also I am unlikely to go for a 30mm scope. I have to check as my rinmgs might all be inch rings. And these 30mm scopes are all so big usually.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: NitroX]
      #307585 - 10/11/17 10:02 PM

Doing some research on the scopes.

I see that 30mm scope tubes are becoming passe with the fashionable set. And now scope tubes of 34mm are becoming the must have thing.

So hopefully there will soon be a flood of potential 30 mm tubed scopes at decent prices on the pre-owned market.

Now I DO HOPE I have a set or two of 30mm Valmet/Tikka rings ... will have to have a look.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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HeymSR20
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: NitroX]
      #308077 - 22/11/17 04:45 AM

Don't discount the accuracy or killing power of the 7x65R. I have a 6x42 Zeiss on mine and I have shot Roe deer out to 200 metres with this set up.

On the assumption that the two sets of mounts and bases are identical - ie you can use either mount on either set of barrels. Are these quick detachable mounts? I think the standard valmet mount is onto a dovetail which should be fast to remove and replace with acceptable return to zero.

I would be getting a pretty standard 3-9x36 or 4-12 x42 scope which will give you all the magnification you need to for longer shots - mainly for use on the 222 barrel, and for the 7x65R ideal would be a 1.5-6x42, or if you were doing a lot of driven hunting a 1.25-4x24.

Leupold do a 1-4x20 Scope - the Hog scopes - are 1" tubed and really nice and small and compact, and 4x is more than enough for anything bigger than a head shot on a rabbit at 100m. And wind it back to 1x perfect for giving that fast running fox a charge of shot. But to be honest I have shot enough foxes with the shot barrel of my combination gun with a fixed 6x42.

If I am shooting flying game, scope is off and rifle barrel is empty. If something rifle shootable appears, use the open sights, or slip on the scope.

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Grenadier
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #308087 - 22/11/17 06:11 AM

I have had a few combination guns, a scoped 30-06/12ga, a scoped 7x65R/12ga, and an unscoped 7x57R/16ga. The 7x65R/12ga combination was by far the most versatile and I used it for pheasant, dove, pigeon, and deer.

I cannot image trying to shoot a shotgun using a scope. Any magnification would severely limit the field of view and even a 1X scope would make it very difficult to keep your eye on the target. The only exception would be when shooting a stationary target like a sitting rabbit. And how would you ensure the scope is regulated for both the rifle AND the shotgun simultaneously? Maybe it would be, but if it wasn't that wouldn't be very good at all.

I have never seen a swing away mount that any good. They are awkward and make the weapon feel out of balance, even on military rifles. I cannot imagine trying to shoot a shotgun with one of those contraptions mounted on it.

My combinations used EAW type swing out mounts. A single lever at the rear is flipped and the scope rotates out of a dovetail in the front. Installing the scope is just a matter of reversing the procedure. Those mounts are simple, fast, and do a great job of retaining zero.

But here's an idea. Why not mound a scope and then put a small reflex sight on one of the rings. Rings and ring halves are available with small rails on them. They make it easy to mount a red dot reflex sight like the Burris Fastfire 3 or the Vortex Venom on a scope.

People are already using the small reflex sights with their shotguns......




... and many rifles have a little reflex sight on the scope so the shooter can quickly transition to a red dot in a CQB situation.



So, why not mount your scope in the usual way and add the reflex sight to it? Then you could shoot the rifle or shotgun at will without removing or changing anything. Furthermore, each could be adjusted to shoot where it should.

--------------------
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crshelton
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: Grenadier]
      #309248 - 21/12/17 01:47 AM

This combo gun has worked well for me for many years:



A scoped Savage 24 Turkey gun with .22 Hornet over 3 inch 12 gauge.
The scope is made for turkey hunting with crosshairs and a circle that indicates whether the turkey is within shotgun range.
This combo has taken many wild turkey and varmints in Texas and some prairie dogs in NM where the above picture was taken.

The scope is also useful with the 18 inch .45-70 barrel insert using 300 grain ammo at 100 yards, allowing good minute-of-deer accuracy. The short barrel within a longer barrel also muffles the report and does away with any muzzle flash.

The gun came with factory sling swivels mounts which allow the gun to be slung over the shoulder when using a box call or binoculars.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (21/12/17 01:52 AM)

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93x64mm
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: crshelton]
      #309262 - 21/12/17 07:20 AM

The little red dot sight are certainly handy!
My 404 on a CZ 550 is certainly not a combination gun (has a few different loads) but you don't foul up when reloading quickly as when you have a scope sight.
Very easy to take on & off; nothing to slip into your pocket to carry either!
Scroll down a bit to find.
http://americanhuntingrifles.com/?page_id=72

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windy
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #316963 - 31/05/18 09:15 AM

I've shot clays with my 1.5x-4x scoped Brno 7x57R/12ga and didn't do too badly; a friend asked to try and broke 2 out of 4 chances the first time he held the gun. I think a bit more practice will make it workable--but only on the lowest setting. Unfortunately, I've found that cranking it from 1.5x to 4x changes the 7's point of impact at 100 yards by almost 6"--vertically--and that dampens my enthusiasm a bit for carrying it afield. I suppose that most of the time, I'll have time to change it if I carry it in the 1.5x setting and happen to come upon a chance at a deer; sighting it in with the 4x to shoot 3" high at 100 will make meat on most of my chances and I don't think it will affect my shot pattern adversely. Of course, a better scope would eliminate that part of the problem. Also, given the closeness of the cover I hunt, a flushed rabbit or partridge will often escape even when I'm packing the 16-bore double, so I doubt I'll extinguish the resource no matter how much better I get with the BBF. Good luck this Fall.
windy

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Igorrock
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: windy]
      #316968 - 31/05/18 02:21 PM

This is one answer:

https://www.wolverinesupplies.com/produc...-30mm-rings-low



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xausa
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Re: What is the perfect sighting solution for a Combination? [Re: Igorrock]
      #316973 - 31/05/18 11:59 PM

My Krieghoff "Teck" O/U .458 WM double rifle wears a Lyman All American 2 1/2X scope. Before I went on my first African hunt, back in the early 70's, I used to shoot it on the skeet range, using .410 factory loads. There was no question of reloading the shells afterwards, but the little cartridges made a respectable pattern with the AA wads protecting the barrel. The number of birds I broke was comparable with what I did with my Winchester Model 42 skeet gun and the same cartridge. It was wonderful training for the unexpected opportunity, since I shoot international style, with the gun at my hip when the bird is thrown.

I look at reflector sights and the like as just another attempt to replace skill with technology. My PH described to me how one of his previous clients had missed out on easy shots at kudu and leopard because he couldn't find them in the scope. Practice, and lots of it, are needed to solve that problem.

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