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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Hoot
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/17
Posts: 94
Loc: MN
Not exactly a Mauser...
      #306596 - 19/10/17 01:54 AM

but I didn't see a better place to post my query.

I have a sporterized '88/05 Commission rifle. In deference to the 100+ year old bits, I have been shooting gas checked, cast bullets with a sized diameter of .323" (169gr.) and .325" (205 and 220gr.). Both fit easily into fired cases so I do not believe there is any sort of issue with the neck clearance.

The .323" 169gr shoot well (and this may be my answer at the end) but I wanted to try some heavier bullets; hence the 205 & 220gr. Book velocity indicates about 1600fps or so (not cronographed). However, all shots were keyholed at approximately 15 yards. First shot was at 25 yards and didn't even hit the target backer, so we moved in.

I know that increasing velocity will add some stability but I don't know just how much I can push this old girl before caution is thrown to the wind. Recoil is, umm, 'significant' with these heavier bullets and such a slim, light rifle, so that is another reason not to push much harder.

I have not varied the seating depth as of yet. Dad suggested that perhaps getting closer to the lands might get things spinning sooner rather than 'skidding' when the bullet hits the lands. Nor have I slugged the barrel but I have never heard of an '88 with a groove diameter larger than my bullets---not that I have heard everything.

All this leads up to, are there any suggestions? I don't wish to hot-rod anything but just how hard can I push before I am treading dangerously? Actual load can be supplied if helpful...I'm away from my notes at the moment.

Thank you for any input,
Hoot

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: Hoot]
      #306600 - 19/10/17 03:54 AM

Hoot - once the heavier bullets are lubricated, you can reduce those to .323" or .321" without any distortion as long as the dies have a generous 'entry'. A Lee "push through" die would be easiest for the final sizing. Size may be your problem - just too large in diameter for your groove diameter.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: DarylS]
      #306613 - 19/10/17 08:46 AM

I suggest you slug your bore. Best to know what you are working with and there is a bit of variation between Gew.88 bores. I don't shoot cast bullets but I have read that cast bullets should be .001" over groove size.

Vlad

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: Vladymere]
      #306615 - 19/10/17 11:04 AM

As Vladymere said, slug your bore but also slug the rifles throat.
Many times a cast bullet that fits the throat will shoot better than one that is .001/.002" over bore diameter (as long as it fits in the fired case).
Also check the rate of twist, it may be too slow to stabilize the longer bullet at the low velocity.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #306616 - 19/10/17 11:55 AM

Quote:

As Vladymere said, slug your bore but also slug the rifles throat.
Many times a cast bullet that fits the throat will shoot better than one that is .001/.002" over bore diameter (as long as it fits in the fired case).
Also check the rate of twist, it may be too slow to stabilize the longer bullet at the low velocity.



This is true. many cast bullet BR shooters now size to the throat size (taper and all) and ignore the groove to groove measurement.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
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Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: DarylS]
      #306618 - 19/10/17 12:56 PM

Many of those 88/05 rifles are still .318 groove dia bbls (8x57I or more commonly called 'J'),,
the chamber neck having been relieved for use with later .323 bullet dia 8x57S ammunition.
That's why the fired case can easily take a .323 bullet,,,but the bore you are pushing it through may be .318.
Jacketed bullets can give good accuracy thru the combination.
Lead bullets generally not,,the ,323 lead bullet fired through a ,318 bore is usually stripped through the rifling and gives little or no accuracy. Alloy, speed, powders can all make some difference though of course.

This may be the problem and slugging the bore would be the first thing I'd do to see what you are dealing with.

If it's .318 bore,,you can size .323 lead bullets down thru a LEE sizer as mentioned.
If you want to shoot jacketed bullets,,I use .321 bullets intended for the 32Winchester Special (170gr) and load them lightly for the M88 sporters. The thinly jacketed 32Special bullets shoot well in the 8x57J bore rifles.
Just don't try and make a magnum out of any of them.

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Hoot
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/17
Posts: 94
Loc: MN
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: 2152hq]
      #306672 - 21/10/17 01:38 AM

Thank you folks! You have given me a couple of ideas to pursue.

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sharps4590
.333 member


Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 271
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: Hoot]
      #306756 - 24/10/17 09:48 PM

I have a Strover sporter '98 in 8 X 57 with the .318 bore and my to date, limited experience has been with a 200 gr. cast & gas checked bullet. The only sizing die I have that is close is .321. The sized bullet fits into the case mouth but just barely. It's loose enough I don't believe it's causing any pressure problems but I wouldn't want it any tighter. Anyway, the first load I tried was 30 grs. of H-4895 from the Lyman cast bullet book. That load was listed for the '98 Mauser and Lyman called it out for the .323 bore but as pressures were listed and pretty mild I wasn't concerned with it. At 50 yards, benched they just about all went into one hole. Given that .321 is obviously close to the throat dimension that could be the reason it shot so good. Another reason for the accuracy is no doubt the Lyman aperture sight that was installed sometime in the distant past.

As others have said, slug your bore and throat, then you aren't guessing. If the bore is decent you should be able to make it shoot.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: sharps4590]
      #306773 - 25/10/17 07:24 AM

My understanding of the Gew.88 is that it is a a .320" bore with a .318" bullet. At that time frame jacketed bullets where new. The jackets where thin. It was thought that the .318" bullet with the soft lead core and thin copper jacket would "slug up" in the .320" bore. A lot of rifeling from that time frame appears to be worn as the lands tend to be rounded. These where purpose made that way because square lands would cut the jacketing causing the bullet to come apart.

I have multiple Gew.88 rifles, carbines and Gew.88 based sporting rifles. Most of the sporting rifles where purpose made and not converted from military rifles. I have not slugged all of the bores. Some of those I have are a Haenel model 1888 sporting rifle, lands are .311" and grooves are .321".

Hanel #1 Mannlicehr-Hanel sporting rifle, lands are .305", grooves are .316".

Hanel #1 Mannlicehr-Hanel sporting rifle, lands are ..310, grooves are .318".

Hubertus Model 88 sporting rifle, lands are .309", grooves are .320"

Eduard Kettner Model 88 sporting rifle, lands are .303", grooves are .314".

Haenel Kar.88, lands are .312", grooves are .319".

Haenel Kar.88, lands are .313", grooves are .319"

Gew.88 based sporting rifle, lands are .311", grooves are .319".

It seems that the military barrels tend to be .319" or larger and the sporting rifles are using much tighter bores possibly with the idea of boosting velocity by increasing pressure.

Vlad

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sharps4590
.333 member


Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 271
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: Vladymere]
      #306774 - 25/10/17 07:49 AM

Wow Vlad!! What a nice collection!! I'm still laying for a nice sporter on the 88 and have seen some Haenel's and Kettner's I really liked...just not quite enough to spring for them at the time. That time is now I believe.

Interesting dimensions of all your barrels and I can't say I'm the least surprised. Thanks for posting that info.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1830
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: sharps4590]
      #306775 - 25/10/17 07:59 AM


The last paragraph of this may be relevant to the original post
(from the 1939 Stoeger catalog);



BR.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Edited by Rothhammer1 (25/10/17 08:07 AM)

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Hoot
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/17
Posts: 94
Loc: MN
Re: Not exactly a Mauser... [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #307492 - 09/11/17 02:35 AM

Quote:


The last paragraph of this may be relevant to the original post
(from the 1939 Stoeger catalog);



BR.



Thank you for that tidbit. I was able to read it before PB decided to cancel the image. However, I did not save a copy. Would it be possible for you to send me one? I can provide an e-mail if you wish.

So, (from memory) we have a 207-ish grain, .318"-ish bullet as a 'standard' loading. Does it mention anywhere what the velocity was for that?

It is deer season here so I have not gotten back to that project but the long winter months are right behind so there should be plenty of time soon.

Thanks again!

Edited to add: Just ran into an NRA article which states: "The rifle was chambered for a new 8x57 mm Mauser rimless, smokeless powder cartridge with a 226-grain FMJ-RN bullet of .318" diameter with a muzzle velocity of 2095 fps. Average breech pressure was held to approximately 40,000 PSI." So much for my memory...

Here => https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/11/2...m_campaign=1117

Edited by Hoot (10/11/17 12:33 AM)

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