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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Explain regulation to me!!
      #30095 - 26/04/05 11:04 PM

GDay guys, I have a few questions regarding regulation, if you will permit me...

I am assuming that the major cost involved with building a double rifle is the regulation of the barrels for same impact point at a given range with a given load. Otherwise they would be as cheap as a SxS shottie. I understand the barrels are soldered together and tested then 'regulated', tested again and so on until they are right. True? Time consuming!

I don't like the idea of the jackscrew on a moveable barrel like has popped up of late but surely there has to be a better way to do this in today's age! Don't you think? This may seem stupid but why couldn't you get your two rifled barrels which have been chambered and a laser to fit each and simply line the lasers up together at whatever distance, then join the barrels together and develop a load to suit?




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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis


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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: tunofun]
      #30098 - 27/04/05 12:52 AM

In reply to:

then join the barrels together and develop a load to suit?




That would mean that anyone who buys a double rifle would need custom made ammo. If they regulate them the way they do and use standard factory ammo you have a load to start with and you could tweek it up with custom hand loads.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: foxfire]
      #30101 - 27/04/05 02:34 AM

To further that point...


No two barrels shoot the same.
You could have two barrels made by the best barrel maker in the world, out of the same material, on the same tools, done at the same time, and have two barrels with completely different character.

Funny that way, but that's just the way it is.
He who regulates a double rifle works to massage the pair of barrels to shoot to the same place with over the counter ammo so the gun will continue to do that all over the world with same said ammo.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: tinker]
      #30117 - 27/04/05 08:56 AM

I don't know why I didn't see that! Of course, not much point making a rifle which needs custom ammo from the word go!

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: tunofun]
      #30145 - 27/04/05 11:29 PM

In reply to:

This may seem stupid but why couldn't you get your two rifled barrels which have been chambered and a laser to fit each and simply line the lasers up together at whatever distance, then join the barrels together and develop a load to suit?





It is not a stupid idea, Tonofun, but it simply will not work! The fact is the regulation requires the barrels to point LOW, and CROSSED in relation to the point of aim on the traget. The reason for this is; There is a little thing called BARREL TIME involved! IOW, the rifle depends on the recoil, and bullet speed, to place the bullets on target properly. Change the weight, or ballance of the rifle,or the load, and it usually throws the regulation off! This is why if you mount a scope on a double that wasn't regulated for it, the regulation is usually upset greatly.

Believe me, the lazer has been tried, but is only usefull for gaining a starting point, by adgusting the barrels to an educated guess, to begin the regulation process! The lazer is used by about all makers in a jig to start the process, but the old trial&error is still required to get the job done. The regulation is not THE major cost, however,it is considerable, in the building any double rifle worth owning. The fitting of a double rifle's action parts is parimount, far more than it is for even the finest shotgun.

Take a barrel set from a double rifle, and lock them in a padded vise, with the sights on target at the distance it was regulated for. Then place two empty cartridge cases , without primers, in the chambers, then look through the primer holes, like a PEEP-SITE. What you will see is, the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point to the LEFT of the POA, and LOW , and vise-versa for the left barrel! This is necessary because when the RIGHT barrel is fired, the rifle will rise up, and to the right, and again the left barrel will do the opposite, and the amount of time the bullet stays in the barrel durring recoil, will dirrectly effect the POA on the target, at a given distance! If the load is too slow, the group will be high & wide, if too fast it will be low, and crossed. Change anything in the load, or the weight, and ballance of the double rifle, and you will likely open, or close, and the composite group be high or low!

As someone above stated the regulation is as near as is possible made to shoot available factory ammo. The problem is, no matter how well regulated the rifle is, for factory, it is simply a "one size fits all" sittuation. Any double rifle that is worth owning is worth working up the ultimate load for it. So, your job, as owner, is to get the best out of the compromise regulation done at the factory, by fine tuneing the loads to your particular rifle!

The cost of a fine double rifle is the team of highly skilled artisans with their files, and ability to do the average of 400 man hours required to build a double rifle. When one considers the wages for a tool&die maker, who still doesn't have the skill to build a double rifle, it is a wonder to me, why double rifles aren't more expensive than they are!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #30149 - 28/04/05 03:19 AM

Well, thanks for that fantastic post DUGABOY1, much appreciated! I am not as dumb as I thought afterall! hehehe Cheers!

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis


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unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: tunofun]
      #30152 - 28/04/05 03:49 AM

At one time CVA sold a double barreled muzzle loader that had the barrels aligned in a jig with lasers. It was not notably successful, they switched to the adjustable muzzle concept.

The Kodiak barrels are also aligned in a jig with some what better results than the CVA but still not perfect.

BTW: One of the reasons for so many proprietary cartridges in the old British trade was so the maker had control over the loading and would not be dependent on the whims of the ammo manufacturer. (I'm not saying this was the only reason, a captive market may have been an object as well.) For example, some doubles were chambered for the 30-30. Of late Winchester has altered the loading. So where are you with factory loads in one of them?


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Explain regulation to me!! [Re: unspellable]
      #71289 - 12/02/07 06:44 AM

BTTT

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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