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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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doublegunfan
.275 member


Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
DR on Beretta Frame
      #30057 - 26/04/05 05:50 AM

Gentlemen,

I am new on this board, but I have been reading your discussion for some time. I would like to hear your opinions on a project.

A few weeks ago, I was offered a Beretta SxS, model 411E, DT, sideplates, ejectors, beautifully engraved, which had the barrels cut to 22". On that occasion I said "no" because those shorty tubes would not serve me, given conventional shotgun use.

Now the offer returns, but two rifled barrel blanks are included in the deal so that I could sleeve these in and build a double rifle using the action. It has a third Greener-type lock, and it is made by a well known maker of quality firearms, so I think that it matches Ellis Brown's criteria (yes, I have read the book). It really made me think and I am considering the deal. The cost of the whole project seems to be at least 25% less than the importation of a DR.

Would those out there with more experience in building a double rifle please comment?

Fred

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: doublegunfan]
      #30061 - 26/04/05 08:06 AM

I don't know anything about that Beretta frame. Like all shotgun frames, it would be re-hardened and at the very least you would want bushed strikers for safety reasons. Can't predict durability, but resale is easy to predict - Not High! Sorry to say it, but there it is. But if you think the project will be fun and do not care if you lose money on it, charge ahead and let us know how it goes.

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: doublegunfan]
      #30064 - 26/04/05 10:14 AM

In short, 500 is spot-on...

I see that you're in Brazil and a phone conversation may be tough, but if i were you I would get in touch with either.

JJ Perodeau at Champlin Firearms (Liege Trained Gunsmith)
www.champlinarms.com

or Kirk Merrington (English Trained Gunsmith) he has a website somewhere... do a search for it.

They are two guys i know that can build a set of Double Rifle Barrels.... (From scratch - if need be.)

They can tell you immediately whether or not that action would be suitable and for what chamberings.

I've had this conversation with both of them... and believe that they will also tell you what they've told me

"if the action came off of a double rifle, then it is suitable for another DR. - if not it's a gamble with your money, and they will make no guarantees" (assuming they take the project on)

"If the action came off of a shotgun, then it it not suitable."

Despite their visible similarities, there are apparently many differences (in thier opinions) between SG actions and rifle actions.

If it were a MERKEL shotgun however... well, that would be a different story alltogether!!!

right, 500?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: 500grains]
      #30065 - 26/04/05 10:39 AM

In reply to:

. The cost of the whole project seems to be at least 25% less than the importation of a DR.



If you are doing it for financial reasons, rather than for fun, it will cost you much more than the 25% in resale.

I saw 470 built on a Browning action in Vancouver over the weekend. It was done by a local smith and, aside from 22 inch barrels, looked okay. Asking $7500Can but said he would take $4000US.

Still too much.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: doublegunfan]
      #30070 - 26/04/05 11:26 AM

dgf:
As an owner and frequent user of a DR built on a shotgun action, my opinions differ from those of the above posters.

Beretta is a reputable maker of quality guns, and the Greener cross-bolt is a definite plus. A lot will depend on the chambering, and subsequent back-thrust on the action. What is the boring of the proffered barrel-blanks, and what cartridge do you plan to chamber?

In Australia, these things can be built for around half the going rate for a new Merkel/Kreighoff/Chapuis, and less than half a Searcy. However....

The crux of the matter is proof. If the newly-built rifle survives an honest proof-load (25 to 30% over 'factory'load) for the nominated chambering, then it is no worse (or better) than any other DR, including Searcy etc.

If it fails proof, however, you've done your dough....

Are you a gambling man?
I'm not!: I bought mine 3rd-hand!!

Here's the story.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: Marrakai]
      #30076 - 26/04/05 01:27 PM

newguy,

Merkel has admitted that their double rifle and shotgun actions are made from the same steel and from the same blueprints. BUT the actions they want to use for double rifles go through a different hardening process. As far as the claim that their double shotguns are built on rifle actions, even Merkel does not take that one seriously enough to write it down.

By the way, I know of a Browning Citori O/U in 450 NE. Asking price is US$10,000. Looks like the original shotgun stock. Anyone want it? I told the gun store I would give them $200 for it.

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doublegunfan
.275 member


Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: 500grains]
      #30088 - 26/04/05 09:36 PM

Thanks for your inputs. I have a few things to add to my initial post.

The first is that hte frame is a 12 ga, and I would build it into a rifle chambered for either the 45/70 or the .444 Marlin.

I am not considering this as a re sale project. But as I told in the first post, the gun is now in such a condition that it is not usefull as a shotgun, so sleeving would give it a new life.


Fred

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: Marrakai]
      #30094 - 26/04/05 10:51 PM

Hey Marrakai, who does this work in Australia? Would be interesting to have it done to a SxS shottie!

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: 500grains]
      #30097 - 27/04/05 12:27 AM

In reply to:


newguy,

Merkel has admitted that their double rifle and shotgun actions are made from the same steel and from the same blueprints. BUT the actions they want to use for double rifles go through a different hardening process. As far as the claim that their double shotguns are built on rifle actions, even Merkel does not take that one seriously enough to write it down.

By the way, I know of a Browning Citori O/U in 450 NE. Asking price is US$10,000. Looks like the original shotgun stock. Anyone want it? I told the gun store I would give them $200 for it.



that was a joke regarding RIP and the lengthy thread over at AR, not towards you.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: tunofun]
      #30128 - 27/04/05 01:55 PM

Rolph Bachnick at Safari Arms did the Greener .577, he also put together a number of successful .577/12-bore cape guns on Empire actions. He was John Saunders' gunsmith at the old Century Arms, so is an 'expert' at 're-representing' British double guns and single-shots!

The work on my double is very good, but I believe Rolph needs plenty of direction, ie spell out very clearly exactly what you want done. Only what I've heard...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: DR on Beretta Frame [Re: doublegunfan]
      #30176 - 28/04/05 02:33 PM

Fred,
Despite what some may tell you, it is possible to build a very good double rifle using a shotgun frame.

The biggest pitfall is in regard to the man who is doing the work.
Many gunsmiths IMO should not be allowed to even work on double rifles, let alone try to build one from scratch.
You really need to see and shoot an example of their previous work (building doubles) before trusting them to be able to give you good value for your money.
Thesedays it is not really economical to build double rifles as there are lots of over the counter new doubles available at fair prices from the likes of Merkel, Chapuis and others.
Best of luck with it if you decide to go ahead.

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