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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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MacNaughton
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: dan fraser for sale [Re: 500Nitro]
      #29838 - 21/04/05 01:00 PM

I`m glad that you bought a Rigby double rifle..........I only wish that I had. I wish that I`d invested a few grand in a selection of top flight double rifles thirty years ago ! I`m not too sure about how much the California Rigbys have affected the value of `old` Rigbys as prices have been rising pretty consistently anyway. I suppose the California Rigbys might have made the buying public more aware that there is a decidely finite supply of the original Rigbys with a subsequent hike in value.
I only saw the advertising photographs in the DBJ some time after they first appeared when somebody drew my attention to them and realised straight away that they had problems - If they couldn`t finish a gun to superb type specs for an advertisement it didn`t bode too well for the consumer guns. You`re not the first person to comment on the finish of those Rigby Merkel actions and it was something that really puzzled me as Merkels are generally excellently finished. The only thing that I could think of is that the actions were built to a price - you get what you pay for in other words.
Merkels are, as I said, usually very well finished - just ( very ) occasionally though a less well finished gun gets out of the factory. I have no idea why - staff training day maybe ? Likewise - and again very occasionally - a Merkel appears that is a little `tight` feeling on closing and they don`t get any better with use, if anything they get `tighter`.
It`s not fair to `hit` on Merkel as they are no more inclined to produce a slightly less good gun than most other volume gunmakers. Berettas are pretty consistent but every now and then you get a ridiculously good example with wood that is way above the model standard. Anyone in the market for a new Beretta should view a good selection before buying as the odds of finding one of those exceptional examples are pretty good. I actually know of a gunshop in the UK that has taken to pricing new Berettas individually to take advantage of this.
Oh yes, `proper` guns are hammerless and burn smokeless powder. I can appreciate a hammer gun but have no desire to own one - and as for that stinky black stuff......... If that makes me a Philistine then so be it - I reckon I`m entitled to my opinion. Actually messing about with black powder guns can be fun.....but I wouldn`t take one into the field.

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: dan fraser for sale [Re: MacNaughton]
      #29845 - 21/04/05 05:43 PM


MacNaughton,

Apart from the William Horton 360 2 7/16th, I have moved on all of my BP Doubles.
I still have an Alex Henry 450 BP Single Shot in need of a restoration but I agree,
it's too much hard work.

That makes 2 Philistine's

You have to remeber that Australians were one of he first countries who started using
Doubles again back in the 70's - BP, Nitro, Bore Guns and Paradox's so all of the guns
here tended to be used on game.
Some funny stories are around of 4 and 8 bores on Buffalo.

Anyway, have work to do so must go.

500 Nitro

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: dan fraser for sale [Re: MacNaughton]
      #29861 - 22/04/05 07:09 AM

MacNaughton,

Firstly, did you see the MacNaughton 470 in an Auction in London a few years ago ?
I nearly had a crack at it but went for something else instead after speaking with
someone in Scotland who owns the MacNaugton name.


William Horton
What do you know about William Horton that isn't already published
in the usual reference books ?


500 Nitro

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MacNaughton
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: dan fraser for sale [Re: 500Nitro]
      #29862 - 22/04/05 08:18 AM

I can`t remember that particular MacNaughton rifle but have seen a couple of others - I`ve never seen ( or heard of ) a bar-in-wood round action rifle.
I`ve little idea of what has been published about William Horton......and have no idea what you might know already.
He was a Stocker in Birmingham before setting up as a gunmaker. Later moved to Whitehaven and then to Glasgow - various addresses. Produced a boxlock action ( I`ve seen two of them I believe ) and was credited with a couple of patents. I`ve had a sidelock of his and have seen others - all built on proprietary Birmingham actions - the one that I had being fitted with Chilton locks. I`ve seen two boxlock rifles, one on a Webley & Scott action, the other on the ubiquitous Alex Henry/Alex Martin type action that was produced by at least two or three Birmingham makers. I`ve also seen an earlier back action hammer sidelock in .450BPE. His own design boxlock seems to have been made for only a few years up to around the mid 1890s - after that all the actions were bought in. The later guns were 100% Birmingham made.
I`m vaguely aware of some relationship with Charles Ingram/George Coster but can`t think what that might be at the moment - I`ll have to brood on that.
I an supply dates for the various addresses but the IGC Historical Database is bound to have them and, no doubt, other information.
Is there a specific question that you have ? My personal historical database is mostly in my head and usually requires specific prompting to retrieve information.....a thump in the ear is often quite effective !

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`

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Morten
.275 member


Reged: 24/04/04
Posts: 89
Loc: Ås, Norway
Re: dan fraser for sale [Re: MacNaughton]
      #29991 - 25/04/05 01:51 AM

There is no doubdt that D.F.was one of the top gunmaker. I have speaked with people that think he was at the top three riflemaker. So I think that if you can get your hand on a D.F. you should grab it an sacrefiese your whole arm in the effort.

Daniel Fraser was mainly a riflemaker and was born 1845 and started his apprenice in 1859 at Alexander Henry. At the age of 21 he was set out to Turkish to introduse the A. henry guns taht the Sultan had orderd for the army. in 1878 he started on his own at 4 Leith Steret Edinburgh and every part of his gunmaking was done in his own factory. He actually was very eager about woodblanks for his guns and traveld himself to France to pick the blanks by him selv.
In a bird hunt in 1902 the weather was not that plesant and he got very wet. He got sick and died later that year only 57 years old. His sons did run the firm some years but in 1911 they closed the business.

In the 30 years that D.F. build guns he build about 3500 guns. 10% shotguns, 10% falling block rifles, 30 D.B.Rifles, and the rest was bolt action rifles. Roughly around 1000 Double Barreld Rifles are made with the Daniel Fraser Lable.

I hope this was a bit interesting for you fellas.

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MacNaughton
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: dan fraser for sale [Re: Morten]
      #30133 - 27/04/05 02:44 PM

Hi Morten. Don`t believe everything that you read in books - especially as the books are having to be revised at a remarkable pace at the moment. Daniel Fraser might have built every part of his earlier guns but by the turn of the century the company was definitely buying in guns from other manufacturers. I`ve had a c.1900 Fraser shotgun apart and can assure you that it was all Mortimer. Daniel Fraser shotguns are rarely encountered and the few that I`ve seen have all been of very high quality - like all Daniel Fraser guns ( especially if they were built by Harkon/Mortimer ) I`ve never seen a sidelock shotgun but have heard of them - obviously very rare.

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`

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