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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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cordite
.333 member


Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
An Acquired Taste
      #292593 - 26/12/16 08:44 AM

Rather difficult getting to the shooting range now, too much snow. But I did celebrate Christmas by testing a couple of loads in the backyard.

The rifle is an improved martini, also known as a free state martini or a majuba martini. More properly, it is a Westley Richards 1869 patent martini.

[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20161225_131412_zpss0rxypqv.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

Some uncultured people say they are ugly. Someone said "they are an acquired taste". Not me, I liked the looks of this one the first time I saw it. Wal Winfer has a whole chapter on them in Volume 4 of British Single Shot Rifles.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292595 - 26/12/16 08:54 AM

Made by Westley Richards, with a WR serial number, it was retailed by Hollis and Sons. It is chambered 450 #2 musket. The barrel is ribbed, 30 inches long, with attached ramrod. Henry Patent rifling.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292600 - 26/12/16 09:09 AM

[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20161225_132412_zpsymynilta.jpg.html][/URL][/image]



[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20161225_131637_zpslayvmoeb.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292604 - 26/12/16 09:50 AM

[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20161225_131523_zpseyy8phyz.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292608 - 26/12/16 11:30 AM

Your gun and my Westly have some similarities. Both have similar forearms both are the same caliber and the front sights are similar. Mine has the ladder sight portion broken off.

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292609 - 26/12/16 11:42 AM

Nice rifle Cordite - I was an uncultured person who thought them ugly until I had one, a carbine in .450 1 1/2" posted here
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=266856&an=0&page=2#Post266856

acquired the taste and bought a 1871 Dangerous Game rifle in .577/500 as by then I liked them!
!http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=279536&an=0&page=1#Post279536

The .450 No. 2 Musket is an excellent cartridge and good to reload

Yours looks like it was destined for the South African market with the multitude of sights, also with the cleaning rod for remote places
Is yours (rod) steel or wood and does it have the extension hidden in the butt?

Huvius who posts here has more than one and is well up on them and may post more info

TH44

Edited by TH44 (26/12/16 12:05 PM)

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: TH44]
      #292610 - 26/12/16 11:52 AM

Wayne - Our posts overlapped, yours also is excellent (Deeley & Edge action ?) and almost certainly for the same market for the same reasons

TH44

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: TH44]
      #292612 - 26/12/16 01:23 PM

I actually contacted WR trying to get info on the gun and they told me there were no records for these guns. Big disappointment. I like the way they had sights out to 600yds. Notice the 150year old Savage accu- trigger. Ha Ha.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: Wayne59]
      #292614 - 26/12/16 01:35 PM

Quote:

I actually contacted WR trying to get info on the gun and they told me there were no records for these guns. Big disappointment. I like the way they had sights out to 600yds. Notice the 150year old Savage accu-trigger. Ha Ha.



Good spot on the trigger, Wayne59.

Nice rifles indeed! Leaves to 600 + a ladder - nice! Too bad the damage.

Would something like these fit, with some 'fitting' of course?

This is the sight I put on my model 1876 Winchester .50/95 - and was able to get to the buffalo at 100 meters on our 'long' range. I ran out of ammo hitting the dirt right between it's legs. Another couple shots & I'd have been "on it". Good sights, made by a very credible firm.

http://www.smithenterprise.com/

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/rear-sights/m-95-long-range-sight-prod18599.aspx

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: DarylS]
      #292617 - 26/12/16 01:54 PM

Th44, my cleaning rod is wood, not original I am sure. The butt is solid, nothing hidden there.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292632 - 27/12/16 12:07 AM

Its hard to tell without having the sight in hand.

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: Wayne59]
      #292634 - 27/12/16 05:03 AM

Wayne - These Pics of an identical sight fitted to my 1875 WR Monkeytail may just help





The 1500 yard top notch is rather optimistic!!

Unfortunately yours appears to have broken across the hinge, although a good gunsmith can do wonders

Cordite - your wood rod may be more original than my metal one. without the extension (may not have been needed on yours), the rod is not long enough to push out a stuck case

Tony

Edited by TH44 (27/12/16 05:05 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: Wayne59]
      #292635 - 27/12/16 06:07 AM

Quote:

Its hard to tell without having the sight in hand.



Yes - too - your spring is broken.

Smith enterprises advised me these sights are all CNC made - thus, they just might be able to help a great deal.
Detailed pictures of your rifle and the sight not broken, measurements, etc. would help.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: DarylS]
      #292638 - 27/12/16 07:32 AM

Any sight that isn't of original style and age of the rifle would do nothing to increase the value. As far as usefulness 600yds is pretty optimistic let alone 1500 yds. Dose anyone know if these guns originally shot paper patched bullets and what weight they used.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: Wayne59]
      #292651 - 27/12/16 02:57 PM

The 450 # 2 was loaded with 76 grains of blackpowder and a 480 grain paper patched bullet.
Hoyem, Volume 3, History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition, page 95.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: cordite]
      #292667 - 28/12/16 04:30 AM

I tried some 530gr and BP but it wasn't much fun. Kicked the shit out of me.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: Wayne59]
      #292672 - 28/12/16 05:40 AM

When loaded to the same ballistic specs, real BP has almost TWICE (good 50% prob. more) the recoil of the smokeless powder load.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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HuviusModerator
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3555
Loc: Colorado
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: DarylS]
      #292676 - 28/12/16 06:26 AM

Ahhhh....
Love those Westleys!
The Westley Richards 1869 patent actually predates the Martini patent and both are more of an "improved Peabody"
W.R.'s patent being #1931 of 1868 and the Martini patent is #2305 of the same year. The "improved Martini" name has just stuck.
It is interesting that these rifles are so maligned based on how they look. I bet that they have accounted for many more game animals than Farquharsons have.
To me they just have that cool Victorian look to them. I love old pictures from the African frontier of men with their Westleys.
Every one of mine that I have got around to shooting perform very well and could surely take down any big game animal today up to elephant.
I don't think I have ever seen one with a scope, which is something I would like to have some day if I ever come up with good period glass. I guess the marksmen of the day just didn't need a telescopic sight!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: Huvius]
      #292685 - 28/12/16 10:03 AM

They were probably younger than we are.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: DarylS]
      #292699 - 28/12/16 01:48 PM

Quote:

When loaded to the same ballistic specs, real BP has almost TWICE (good 50% prob. more) the recoil of the smokeless powder load.



Explain that please Daryl.


My understanding of physics says a 500 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1500 fps will produce the same recoil no matter the powder. Did I miss something?

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: DoubleD]
      #292702 - 28/12/16 02:00 PM

Yes you did. You have to add the weight of the burnt BP or eject-ta. Burnt smokeless has far less weight to it and is used in much smaller amounts. Bp has a much more noticeable kick than a Nitro for Black load. Also burn time affects felt recoil. Bp burns slower so it pushes against you longer. That's why some people say Bp firearms have more of a shove than a kick. I am fairly sure this will start a friendly discussion.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: An Acquired Taste [Re: DoubleD]
      #292703 - 28/12/16 02:01 PM

BP load producing identical speeds will kick more.

If you have a 12 bore, you can prove it to yourself - SS break open would be best - as to felt recoil- I personally would not shoot the BP load from a SS.

Load a 2 3/4" case with 7 drams - 190gr. of 2F black powder + a .724" or so, round ball.

If it's a SXS - the recoil may split the stock - fair warning.

1st shot from my side by side - surprised me - spun me 1/4 circle- almost 1/2. I had been shooting smokeless loads - not even close. Had to repair the stock due to split tang. Then, it was OK, but sure preferred the smokeless after that.

Load up a 2 3/4" AA case with 44.0gr. Blue Dot and a 525gr. slug with the same round ball.

Same velocity, 1,500fps but 50% less felt recoil.

The recoil formulas do not work with black powder.

Too - I can easily fire 1,600fps loads with a 506gr. G/C bullet in my Sharps using 42.0gr. of Benchmark, yet 122gr. 2F, producing 1,500fps kicks considerably more.

You could also compare factory .45/70 ammo with 405's at about 1,320fps and a full compressed load of 65gr. 3F with 405 jacketed or cast. The BP load might make 1,230fps yet will kick more.

56% by weight of black powder results in solid waste when burnt - ejecta - added to bullet weight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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