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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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1885
.275 member


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Edmond, OK, USA
Proof Marks and other Identifiers
      #28880 - 04/04/05 07:11 AM

I looked at the underside of my Andrews barrels very closely in good light today and have a few questions. In addition to the proof marks in the picture I posted, there are two other proof marks on the actual barrels themselves. On each barrel is what appears to be a crown over GP. Then, the letters C.W.A. stamped above it on each barrel (C. W. Andrews I assume). Then, there is a small circle on one barrel with the small size letters J A inside. Anyone have an idea what these all mean...especially the small JA?

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Proof Marks and other Identifiers [Re: 1885]
      #28896 - 04/04/05 02:25 PM

1885:
The small JA in a circle is the initial or Trade Mark for Josh Astbury, an action forger and filer, and parts machinist, for the trade. He operated from a workshop in the Birmingham gun quarter between the wars (and maybe earlier guessing the age of your Andrews hammergun). I have also seen his name written as Joseph Astbury (perhaps the next/previous generation?), and also the spelling 'Asbury'. Unfortunately, not much is known about the firm since they never made-up complete guns. Nevertheless, some very high quality guns wear this mark, including my Manton-retailed John Wilkes .470!

Although plain-finished, you can be very confident that your double is indeed a good one, 1885.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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1885
.275 member


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Edmond, OK, USA
Re: Proof Marks and other Identifiers [Re: Marrakai]
      #28934 - 05/04/05 09:25 AM

Thanks, Marrakai, I appreciate the information about Astbury. It's nice to know that a quality craftsman made the barrels. Could it be that he also made the rest of the action? My Andrews seems to be quite well made considering it is a field grade gun. I'll take quality over looks any day. Hopefully, I'll have a chance to get some loads ready in the next few weeks and give it a try. Hope it regulates easily...I'd like to use it to take some Whitetails here this Fall.

Is there any way to tell who may have made the rest of the rifle? Or, could Andrews have farmed out all of its rifle work and just had their name put on it for marketing purposes?

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Proof Marks and other Identifiers [Re: 1885]
      #28939 - 05/04/05 10:11 AM

1885:
It is unlikely that Astbury made the barrels, he was principly an action forger and filer, he may have 'fitted' the barrels, and probably just used them as a convenient spot to leave his mark! My understanding is that Andrews finished-up doubles for other makers too, so I suspect he (or more specifically, his employees and immediate out-workers) made and finished the barrels, and finished the gun.

You will have already learned that it is very difficult, often impossible, to determine who actually made what, and for whom, in the Birmingham (and London!) gun-trade. You are lucky indeed to have the CWA and JA marks on your double, this tells better than half the story, and leaves only a little mystery and intrigue!

BTW: IMHO C.W.Andrews was a quality maker who really knew how to put together a gun. While this board will no-doubt assign his name to a low 'tier', his workmanship was second-to-none, and I suspect a good many 'first tier' guns bore the CWA mark before being struck-off in a London workshop!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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1885
.275 member


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Edmond, OK, USA
Re: Proof Marks and other Identifiers [Re: Marrakai]
      #28948 - 05/04/05 01:47 PM

The Birmingham and London gunmaker trade is all new to me and quite confusing. I wonder why Andrews is not well known or at least well publicized? It would be nice to know more about his company and the rifles they made. I would love to locate a picture of the trade label they used.

I'm fairly new to double rifles. Do you know of a pictoral anatomy of a double rifle so I could better understand the construction process and terminology of the parts?

This particular Andrews is in the 4xxx serial number range. It would be interesting to know its production year or even an approximate number of rifles that were made by them. Although not significantly adorned, this rifle locks up tight and is very solidly built overall. The machining tolerances and fit of the parts seems quite good. I noticed that the internal lock parts are all polished with no machine or file marks appearing anywhere.

Again, thanks for the help and knowledge, Marrakai.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Proof Marks and other Identifiers [Re: 1885]
      #28961 - 05/04/05 07:12 PM

On your side of the pond, the best book for pictoral anatomy of a double, construction process, and terminology of the parts would be "Lock, Stock, and Barrel" by Cyril Adams & Robert Braden (Safari Press, ISBN 1-57157-020-9). Its about SxS shotguns, but will meet your needs well.

There is also a good internet site or two, other posters will no-doubt have a few suggestions here. The Internet Gun Club and Galazan are two oft-quoted sites for history and nomenclature.

There will always be problems with British versus American terminology for double guns. You guys use the term "water-table" for the action flats (Huh? Water causes rust! Should be kept away from fine guns!), "barrel lugs" for lumps, "forend lug" for the loop, "internal hammers" for the tumblers, etc. In Australia, our double-gun heritage is British, but our shooting influences post-WWII are straight American. Plenty of scope for confusion here!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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