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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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PapaScarface
.224 member


Reged: 28/08/15
Posts: 40
Loc: NSW, Australia
Baikal as a base for a project rifle?
      #287515 - 07/09/16 08:30 AM

Hello everyone.

Like a lot of people I just don't have the money to purchase a new double rifle. But I have been seeing a few of the baikal sxs 45/70 and 3006 for sale in Aus at the moment.
Neither caliber appeals to me and my dream has always been to have a double in 303.

So my question is has anyone tried to convert the baikal to 303? Or any other caliber?
How much work will it involve?
What version would be the better to start with 3006 or 45/70?
Does anyone make a nicer stock for the Baikal?
Who would be the best gunsmith in Aus to talk to about this project?

Alternatively Is anyone able to recommend a sxs shotgun that could/would be a better base to start this 303 double project that won't break the budget?

Papa.

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WCF
.275 member


Reged: 06/05/06
Posts: 61
Loc: georgia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: PapaScarface]
      #287519 - 07/09/16 10:53 AM

Papa
I have a 45-70 Baikal which I'm fond of, I also have a what use to be a 30-06. I was not a fan of the 30-06 so I had 30-30 Winchester chamber adapters permanently installed without any problems. I did have to regulate the old fashion way instead of using the factory regulation but I prefer that. I'm sure you could use the monoblock as a basis and install 303 barrels without issue. Hope this helps

Very Respectfully
wcf 30

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Well_Well_Well
.333 member


Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: WCF]
      #287525 - 07/09/16 03:06 PM

Having a 30-06 baikal I would suggest the following 3 points;

Buy a fausti
Buy a merkel
Buy a sabatti.

None will be cheap, but they will all be done properly. There are people with the skills to do the task you require, but the cost of having them do so will way overcapitalise the baikal action.

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #287545 - 08/09/16 01:48 AM

The hard truth on this one is that there is no free lunch in life in general and particularly where double rifles are concerned.

As Express has pointed out, skilled smiths do exist, but even at average and reasonable labor rates, the work involved will drive the price of the Bailkal up to where the cost might likely exceed the cost of a good new Merkel, etc..... And at the end of the day, it'll still be a Baikal that may be worth a thousand bucks.

For an entry level rifle that gets one into the double rifle game, buy a stock Baikal and enjoy it the way it is with minimal mods or work done to it in either .30-06 or .45-70 depending upon whether you like it small and fast or big and slow...... The caliber equation is really not all that much more cosmic than that and other than romance, there is little more to be gained in the caliber selection process.

This is not the answer most would want to hear that have their sights set on this type of project as driven by looking for a way around the entry fee of a good working double but it is reality. The one exception may be for the skilled gunsmith that can do it themselves, but even then, if they're spending time on this project for themselves they are not clocking any billable hours or making money, so even to them there is a significant cost that may have better been spent going out and buying that new Merkel for themselves.

From a financial perspective, if one doesn't want to use the stock Baikal, one might be best served waiting it out, saving longer and buying a good used name brand double in a caliber with similar attributes to the desired caliber (assuming one can't find one in the primary caliber of choice). In the long run, these types of name brand double rifles will likely appreciate in value over time and would be a better bet financially.

As a closing thought, please don't be offended by my opinion. I do have a proven track record of making small fortunes. I have found that if I start with a large fortune, I have quite the knack of turning it into a small fortune and I have the documented track record to prove it!!!!

Edited by Postman (08/09/16 02:07 AM)

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Postman]
      #287560 - 08/09/16 11:18 AM


I agree with Postman. Just enjoy the Baikal for what it is. I think the biggest mistake they made with the rifle was not producing it in .303 Brit but there it is. They did what they did.

IMO, the expense of having it converted would be far better applied to the purchase of another rifle - either new or used.

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Well_Well_Well
.333 member


Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287563 - 08/09/16 03:23 PM

Actually baikal are quite capable of doing it in 303 themselves.

If you could convince them to set up a pair of barrels for the 7.62x39, apply a reamer to suit and so long as you can regulate it yourself you're done.

Of course, you'd have to get past 3 problems;

1. I would require new tooling, even just the reamers and sights, which would be between the 30-06 and 45-70 height
2. You would have to make sure they clearly understood what you wanted
3. As things stand there are economic sanctions that may prevent importation. All to do with the MH17 shoot down apparently......


But if you could convince them of it, I'd have one.

Plus another in 9.3x74R..........

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4al2
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Reged: 27/09/11
Posts: 36
Loc: delaware usa
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #287614 - 09/09/16 08:57 PM

if i can jump, who are we trying to convince?because my understanding this company no longer produce
double rifle would someone clear this up for me?Because i would love to have a Baikal in a double barrel in 9.3x74R.

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Mauser416
.300 member


Reged: 20/06/07
Posts: 162
Loc: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: 4al2]
      #287617 - 10/09/16 01:06 AM

According to the Izhevsk web page they still offer the MP-221 "Artemida" in .30-06, 7.62x51(.308 Win) and .45-70 Govt. Whether or not they are still being imported into the US may be another story tho.

--------------------
There is nothing worse in this world than an enslaved man who naively believes himself free, except, perhaps, trying to explain to that same man his predicament.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: PapaScarface]
      #287674 - 11/09/16 07:48 AM

Quote:

Hello everyone.

Like a lot of people I just don't have the money to purchase a new double rifle. But I have been seeing a few of the baikal sxs 45/70 and 3006 for sale in Aus at the moment.
Neither caliber appeals to me and my dream has always been to have a double in 303.

So my question is has anyone tried to convert the baikal to 303? Or any other caliber?
How much work will it involve?
What version would be the better to start with 3006 or 45/70?
Does anyone make a nicer stock for the Baikal?
Who would be the best gunsmith in Aus to talk to about this project?

Alternatively Is anyone able to recommend a sxs shotgun that could/would be a better base to start this 303 double project that won't break the budget?

Papa.



From a practical and financial aspect I would not bother. If you do not have the gunsmithing skills to do the job yourself, it will end up costing you as much as buying on the cheaper double rifle brands already available. And you will still end up with an ugly Baikal double rifle, but one where the value will probably be still at the same price you purchased it for, before modifications.

Better to either, as said, buy one as is, and use it as is, and enjoy using it that way, if it shoots well enough for your purposes.

OR use the combined dollars to buy say a Sabatti. Sabatti have had some horrible reviews. Do a search so you know what to look for and not buy. Some members have them and are also happy. So buyer beware on the particular rifle and when it was made.

Or a Fausti. I like the look of Faustis but do not know them personally or what price they are. I would consider one of their shotguns, some appear very nice.

Second hand double rifles can be good value. The non big bore rifles in say Merkel, may well be at price LESS than a modified Baikal.

The big bore rifles usually have a higher new selling price, than 'budget' models of medium bores.

As for converting a shotgun. I asked a particular gunsmith who was converting Greener shotguns into big bores, and he no longer does it, and also told me, the end result will cost the same as buying a factory made double rifle. Maybe not completely true as he was making .577 NE's and they usually are not cheap at all from factory offerings. One of these is owned by a member and previously owned by a member.

But the gist of what he said is still true. And you have to find a gunsmith who will do it for you, and if you find him, it will still not be cheap.

If you did have the skills to do the job yourself, then it may be a different matter and personal hours and the satisfaction of building your own rifle is a different story.

To conclude, I personally would not spend thousands of dollars on a very very base grade initial offering. The end result is not worth it. But each to their own.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Porker
.224 member


Reged: 05/01/16
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #287710 - 11/09/16 11:16 PM

Papa ...How many other firearms do you have which no longer get used? I decided I wanted a double bad enough to sell 4 firearms to at least get to within striking distance. Then pay off the smaller outstanding balance over a weekly/fortnightly period. I now only own 2 rifles and hopefully that double within 3 months.

I have found many ossie dealers willing to do lay-by deals under the current economical climate. Get rid of all the stuff you dont use. Like me, you wont be stopping DG with your double, because we can hardly afford an entry rifle, let alone a hunt in Africa.

Make sure you get a caliber that will be useful on as many hunting options possible. My thinking was that if I was going to spend that type of money, I want at least something starting with 4, but useful on pigs, deer etc. I did not compromise and got a 450-400 3" which is about as perfect as you could get. Large enough to be truly an African double, but versatile enough to go anywhere. I intend to use this thing and hopefully have a really bad shoulder at age 70.

For others, a smaller cal is all they want, as in your case it seems ... as long as its a double.
If I was not concerned about getting 400 or more, the 93x74R would have been my choice, but a 303 would be a beautiful little stalker.. keep us informed!

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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Porker]
      #287711 - 12/09/16 01:01 AM

Porker is offering up a sound perspective. I would likely gravitate toward a 9.3x74R as a very versatile double in this situation. It's not a stopper, but it has lots of power on tap, and works very well on smaller big game as well as it does on the larger beasts such as moose, eland, zebra, etc......... It's not really street legal on DG, but that may not be an issue if one won't hunt DG.

Down under where massive water buffalo can be had, and is to be hunted, I'd want something larger than the 9.3 x74R, but how often would one hunt the big stuff? Although I have no first hand experience with scrub Bulls, water buffalo and the like, I'd think the 9.3x74R with appropriate hard premium bullets and expert shot placement would work in a pinch, but again, this medium bore is NOT a stopping rifle. Limited funds being what they are, if one can cover off 99% of one's shooting needs with a reasonably priced medium bore, that is what I'd certainly gravitate towards with its lighter recoil and broader application envelope. A seven pound short handy rifle is much more pleasant to carry around as well, also a consideration given that a hunting rifle is carried a great deal more than it is actually shot.






Edited by Postman (12/09/16 01:49 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: PapaScarface]
      #287777 - 13/09/16 09:41 AM

I don't know if you're open to importing a stock, but my friend Robert Flerin in Slovenia makesfine stocks for the Baikal Artemida. Robert also makes stocks for several of the Ferlach gunmakers, and does not need my praise, though, of course, I am always happy to plug for a friend. He uses thin shelled Slovenian or Austrian walnut for his stocks, and you can contact him on Facebook. You won't find a nicer guy to talk to, whether you choose to buy from him, or not.

I have read of someone who makes a rib for the Artemida, to fill out the gap between the barrels as well, but can't remember where I read about it. When I remember, I shall post the details here.

Also, as several of the members have said, you might find it easier to buy an off the shelf double rifle from one of the many names in the business for less than the price of a customized Baikal. Best wishes with whatever you decide to do, and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
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Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Postman]
      #287795 - 13/09/16 03:41 PM

Quote:

Down under where massive water buffalo can be had, and is to be hunted, I'd want something larger than the 9.3 x74R, but how often would one hunt the big stuff? Although I have no first hand experience with scrub Bulls, water buffalo and the like, I'd think the 9.3x74R with appropriate hard premium bullets and expert shot placement would work in a pinch, but again, this medium bore is NOT a stopping rifle. Limited funds being what they are, if one can cover off 99% of one's shooting needs with a reasonably priced medium bore, that is what I'd certainly gravitate towards with its lighter recoil and broader application envelope. A seven pound short handy rifle is much more pleasant to carry around as well, also a consideration given that a hunting rifle is carried a great deal more than it is actually shot.




I would quite happily use a 9.3x74R on any buffalo. Fourteen water buffalo to mine so far, but none were great big bulls. Like is often the case, takes more than one shot, unless a shot to the brain is used.

However if you do get say a wounded charge, there is far less "insurance" to back you up, especially if hunting alone. Watched a Simon Kyle-Little water buff hunting video last night and was surprised to hear him say, he gets a lot of charges from wounded buffalo. Maybe more common than I thought.

Many Aussies of course use deer sized calibres on water buffalo as well. How many buff escape wounded though overtime?

A great and IMO mild cartridge to use.

Also the price for a double usually increases once the .375 range and above is chambered. The 9.3 is considered a medium bore.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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PapaScarface
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Reged: 28/08/15
Posts: 40
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #287847 - 14/09/16 05:58 PM

Thank you for all the information supplied guys. A lot to digest and think about.

I think after reading all comments that I should give up on the idea of building one from a shotgun or using the baikal as a base, and start saving for a double on the cheaper range!

Does anyone know if any one still makes the 303 in a double or should I just focus on the looking for one in 9.3x74?

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Well_Well_Well
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Reged: 03/01/07
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Loc: Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: PapaScarface]
      #287850 - 14/09/16 09:13 PM

I believe Anderson Wheeler list a 303 as a regular item.

Since the Anderson Wheeler box lock is actually a Verney-Carron, you may prefer to deal with V-C directly.

The agent is in Melbourne, Andrew something. I'll see if I can find his card.

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Postman
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Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #287865 - 15/09/16 03:02 AM

I would love one in .303 myself...... I've only seen one in .303 in a SxS configuration. It was an early 1900s Holland and Holland Royal double, side lock. I couldn't afford it at the time and even now, it would seriously strain my finances to buy it if it was still available, which unfortunately it isn't. There is one new .303 V-C but in over/under configuration locally here for sale, listed as a special anniversary edition and selling at less than 1/3 the price of the H&H referenced above. If it had been in a SxS configuration, it would be adorning my gun vault as I type. I am uninterested in O/U configuration but I expect I will one day stumble into a SxS.

I think the 9.3x74R is a great caliber. The bullets weigh quite a bit more than a .303 and are hurtled along at approx the same velocity as the .303 174 grain bullets, around 2400 fps. Recoil is more, but it can do more if game weight scales upward. The 9.3x74R is very common in many countries in Europe and Africa, but at least in Canada being an old British colony, the .303 is much more common, although not as much so as it once was since the Canadian military moved away from that caliber sometime after the 1950s Korean War.

When I mount a scope on my 9.3x74R Merkel, I can consistently ring the 12" steel gong at 300 yards at the outdoor range I frequent by holding my point of aim on the top of the gong. My longest hunting shot was a lasered 265 yards across a field where I shot a whitetail deer in the brisket and the shot exited the rear quarter using a Barnes 250 grain TSX.

I absolutely love the .303 as well and wouldn't feel undergunned for shooting out to a good 250 yards for most non dangerous game. The one really big thing for me with the .303 is the light recoil..... It is a total joy to shoot, and I could easily see a light well regulated double in .303 quickly becoming a favourite for me.

My thought would be to keep your eyes open and buy a nice rifle that fits you well as the first consideration and maybe be less particular about the caliber. Please do keep in mind that double rifles are funny contraptions that can be cantankerous when it comes to finding a load that regulates well. The 9.3x74R cartridge is most commonly loaded and sold with 286 grain bullets, but my rifle only likes the 250 grain bullets. I had a devil of a time stumbling on the right combinaton that my gun loved. It is not my most expensive double but it is hands down the most accurate and best regulated double that I own now that I have discovered the load it likes. I only mention this because one may need to play with bullets weight, powder type, charge weight, seating depth, and a whole bunch of other reloading trickery to find the magic load. Broader component choice and selection provides more possibilities. Also of note, my factory test target showed a single hole at 50 metres for both barrels using 286 grain RWS ammunition which I haven't managed to find here. Funny it was that when hand loading, I could NOT get any 286 grain bullet to regulate period, yet those Barnes 250s worked miraculously. I do believe there is a pretty wide selection of .303 bullets and weights to select from. Also, do yourself a favour and stick with a rimmed cartridge in a double. Rimless cartridges will and do work well in doubles but it is easier to work with rimmed cartridges in doubles.

Edited by Postman (15/09/16 03:08 AM)

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TonyD227
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Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: Postman]
      #287884 - 15/09/16 03:01 PM

As a previous Baikal and now a Sabatti owner I have to agree with the above.

I picked up this DR in 45-70 for $6K, in Australia, and it was the best purchase I have made.

http://www.sabatti.it/en/Our-products/Fo...RI#.V9oqYNEkrIU

I don't know anything about fausti but this looks like a good deal, maybe ask some Q's why its good first?

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=82647

and if you don't mind an O/U

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=82334





--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

Edited by TonyD227 (15/09/16 03:08 PM)

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Porker
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Reged: 05/01/16
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
Re: Baikal as a base for a project rifle? [Re: TonyD227]
      #287909 - 16/09/16 08:44 AM

If the 303 is what you want, then stick with it as it seems your caliber decision is as important as the platform ... just thinking about versatility and you cant beat the 9.3 for that. In the long run, wont you be better off with a classic military bolt in 303? ... and a 9.3 as a double.

It just doesnt get any better getting a double capable of hunting scoped beyond 250 yards! and still have a close range un-scoped scrub rifle! It ticks all the boxes. Thats the best promotional add you could ever get for the 9.3

Unless its very hard to find rifle/components in Canada for 9.3x74R

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