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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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dracb
.300 member


Reged: 28/02/13
Posts: 133
Loc: British Columbia
Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns?
      #285481 - 20/07/16 04:51 AM

I have three combination guns of relatively modern manufacture. The oldest a BRNO in 7X57R is 1960's era. The Blaser in 7X65R is probably early 2000's and the Zoli in 5.6X50R is probably the same.

If it can be done safely, I want to use monolithic bullets in them while hunting. Why? Just because I want to experiment with monoliths and I really prefer using my combination guns when I hunt with modern firearms.

I see that Blaser now sells under their brand name monoliths (manufactured by Barnes to Blaser's design) in 7X65R and I have not seen a warning that these are not to be used in their combination guns or any others.

I have read a lot of somewhat dated posts and discussions about monoliths over stressing the rifling or causing the barrels to separate. However My searches have not seemed to produce any recent factual information about these bullets causing damage to modern firearms. If they really are great gun wreckers it would seem that the internet would be full of stories with photographs.

So have we passed the time where they are rejected or feared by troglodytes and/or the manufacturers have learned to refine their designs to avoid damage? Can I safely use monoliths in my combination guns?

Drac


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HuviusModerator
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: dracb]
      #285482 - 20/07/16 06:20 AM

Good question.
I have got into arguments on AR regarding this scourge of the double rifle world thinking that combination guns, usually having very thin barrels, would certainly be seeing the same OSR problems yet we hear nothing about it from the drilling guys.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: Huvius]
      #285485 - 20/07/16 07:03 AM

Very good question indeed! I suppose the answer is: "it depends"..... I have a pre WWII 7x57R x 16 gauge 2 1/2" that I will forever be an unabashed troglodyte when selecting loads for it. I use Sierra game kings and Nosler ballistic tips in it and would sooner cut off an appendage before feeding it the mono metal Barnes TSX that I have come to love...... In my post-2000 vintage doubles, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to use the mono metals so long as they are of the driving band design.

I suppose each and every rifle would need to be metallurgically assessed for barrel steel strength, hidden flaws in the metal, build quality, soldering technique and so forth..... I would hazard a guess that the older combi guns don't tend to see so much field use from the general populace, and when they do let go, oh well, it was an old gun after all..... Maybe many are in possession of troglodyte personnel that have never managed a step past the good ole run of the mill Winchester PP or Remngton soft point old school standard ammo types.

I have personally managed to thoroughly bugger an exceptionally beautiful big bore Weatherby many many years ago using the early Barnes X bullets before driving bands were rediscovered..... The lustrous deep blue on the barrel clearly showed the imprint of the barrel rifling in a lovely and perfect spiral on the OUTSIDE of the barrel when held up to the light at the correct reflective angle. I have no doubt that such a bullet that could cause the permanent displacement of barrel steel in such a fashion would break solder joints with aplomb.

I suppose at the end of the day, it is your bar of soap and your shower and you can wash things as quickly or as slowly as you wish as the saying goes....... . I personally would err on the side of caution. If the rifle was of little monetary or sentimental value, then I might be tempted, but...... my one and only combi gun is a lovely little Kersten lock, heavily and deeply engraved and gold inlaid, and I REALLY like it beyond its significant monetary value. In it, I will stick with those old traditional "soft" guilded jacket lead core soft point bullets and I drive them at moderate velocities as they were designed for...... I won't even use Nosler partitions in it for fear the stiffness of the partition might cause unwanted and unintended damage to the rifle barrel or solder joints..... If I want to chase power, velocity, and/or hunt heavier game, I will choose a different rifle. I am a fairly advanced hand loader and I would NEVER try to make this rifle something that it isn't.... I am old and slow enough to accept it within certain "period correct" conservative design parameters....... Maybe that is the answer.... What ammo was generally available when the gun was made? (Excepting Frankenstein creations like the non-driving band monolithic inventions that history has rejected in its infinite wisdom)

Edited by Postman (20/07/16 07:28 AM)


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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: Postman]
      #285491 - 20/07/16 11:11 AM

You may have the only Weatherby in existence with a Damascus barrel. (I would add a smiley face but I don't know how)

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HuviusModerator
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: Postman]
      #285492 - 20/07/16 11:42 AM

Quote:

The lustrous deep blue on the barrel clearly showed the imprint of the barrel rifling in a lovely and perfect spiral on the OUTSIDE of the barrel when held up to the light at the correct reflective angle.




Your description is much the same as many I have heard. Visible in the right light, but not measurable.
What I posit is, the visual effect could be from a heat differential in the barrel which in some way alters the finish OR a momentary stress on the barrel which alters the surface and then returns to original spec via the elasticity of the steel. The bluing unable to maintain its luster as it is stretched and then returned to spec. BTW, we all know that every bullet stresses the barrel, after all, that is how strain gauges work.
Nobody has been able to show that barrel bore dimensions have been changed by shooting monos by actually measuring the bore. I contend that displacement of barrel steel from the inside out - enough to be apparent on the outside surface - must be measurable inside the bore. Nobody has demonstrated that as far as I know.
All that said, I don't choose to shoot monos in any rifle I own but I have it on good authority that a properly designed driving band monolithic bullet OF CORRECT GROOVE DIAMETER is perfectly safe to use even in damascus barreled rifles. Properly designed meaning that the bullet material displaced by the barrel's rifling has a place to flow (into the bullet grooves).

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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prairie_ghost
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Reged: 19/07/08
Posts: 130
Loc: casper, wy
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: Huvius]
      #285496 - 20/07/16 02:37 PM

Let me pose a question since I have a bunch of X bullets I would like to shoot. Since barrel manufacturers typically advertise bore and groove diameters to .xxxx" and have the equipment to measure to that precision, would it not be fairly easy to experiment with an old set of barrels and put the question to rest to a degree that would satisfy most readers if you could get someone to undertake the task. Since this the 21st century, may be able to crowdfund the project amongst the shooting community to get an answer.

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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: prairie_ghost]
      #285498 - 20/07/16 02:59 PM

I don't know if it's measurable or not. That rifle is long gone at least 15 years ago. Would all rifles not have impaired / changed barrel bluing simply by shooting given that all barrels stretch and snap back into shape as a bullet passes through? Presumably if the barrel has exceeded its elasticity such that barrel metal is displaced, it should be measurable given the right measuring tools.... A thou, 10 thou, 100 thou?

I have newer high lustre blued rifles that have fired many more rounds than that long ago Weatherby that look like they just came out of the factory....... No funky twizzler twists in the blue..... Indeed, no evidence whatsoever externally that they've ever been fired........

I too have a bunch of X bullets, but they will NEVER pass through the bore of any rifle of mine. TSX, sure. Love 'em. Original Barnes X are paper weights to me.

Edited by Postman (20/07/16 03:03 PM)


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: Postman]
      #285501 - 20/07/16 07:47 PM

IMHO it depends on the monometal bullet design, metal and make more than on the age of the gun. The bullets must be made of a soft metal , copper, be sufficiently grooved and made by a reputable maker. I use Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets in 3 drillings, 7x57R and 8x57IRS, a 9.3x74R double rifle proofed 1919 and another 1880s one in .500 -.450 #1 BPE without evil effects so far. But I shy away from any monometals without grooves like the first generation X, or those made of brass or by small inventors. I never tried such like the Impala "voodoo" bullets, but for other reasons as well.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Is it safe to use monolithic bullets in combination guns? [Re: kuduae]
      #285505 - 21/07/16 02:21 AM

A local chap, friend of mine, shoots a Merkle O/U 16 X 7x65R. He uses 160gr. TSX to good advantage and cloverleafs - or under 3/4" with these at 100 meters off the bags with reasonable frequency. No damage to his rifle.
I think his speeds are in the 2,650 to 2,700fps range.
The scope is a Zeiss has, which for me are horrid (but interesting looking) amounts to pointed fence post thick posts.
I cannot shoot it that well - the post's and for me, lack of precision, seemed to defeat me when I tried it. I did, however land my 3 into a 1" group at 100 meters. Pete, however loves the reticle and shoots it as it had a 6-24X Varmint scope on it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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