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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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mchughcb
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #285429 - 18/07/16 03:50 PM

Quote:


You guys that shoot big bores in competition, where you might burn through a prodigious amount of ammo in an afternoon certainly have my respect!!!!! Recoil is a tough thing to come to terms with and I'm not confident I'd fare well with repeated and incessant pounding!!!



Trust me, the guys that shoot all the time are making sure that their loads make the BGRc regulations, not maximum handloads. ie. 416 Remington only needs 3900 ftlb with a 400gr to make regulation, not 5300ftlb which is maximum.

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: mchughcb]
      #286053 - 03/08/16 05:06 AM

As a follow-up to one of my earlier questions wrt to accuracy of the .416 Rigby, I had opportunity to see the same .416 Rigby Sako XL action again today, except this time with carefully crafted hand loads. At 50 metres, the Rigby was shooting ragged one hole groups. This is a far cry from my first observation with the factory Hornady DGX ammo that shot minute of pie plate.

So there's definitely NO FLIES on the Rigby cartridge.

Another interesting observation I made was that the Sako XL action was the same length as my L action Sako in .375 H&H. The bolt on the XL is thicker, the claw extractor is wider and heavier, but bolt pull is no different. I am puzzled why so many articles referring to rifles with a "big magnum size action" make such a fuss over how allegedly unwieldy the big action is that can handle a Rigby cartridge. Functionally, I don't see much difference at all moving from the L size to the XL size. Maybe people used to shooting super short action teeny tiny centre fire varmint cartridges like the .223 experience issues making the switch and short stroke their actions when working the actions? I just can't fathom what the fuss is all about.."

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: mchughcb]
      #286081 - 03/08/16 11:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:


You guys that shoot big bores in competition, where you might burn through a prodigious amount of ammo in an afternoon certainly have my respect!!!!! Recoil is a tough thing to come to terms with and I'm not confident I'd fare well with repeated and incessant pounding!!!



Trust me, the guys that shoot all the time are making sure that their loads make the BGRc regulations, not maximum handloads. ie. 416 Remington only needs 3900 ftlb with a 400gr to make regulation, not 5300ftlb which is maximum.



Off topic (sorry) but sad to see, as it seems to go against the origial concepts of the competition ie "big game" competition and using mostly vintage rifles in a target competition. The lower energy rates were probably designed to allow a normal load of a particular cartridge in a class to be included at the lower level, not downloading larger cartridges to match a lesser cartridge.

I prefer my rifles to have sights shooting the "real" cartridges, not downloaded less powerful "squib" loads. I wonder if the "competition" rifles are permanently sighted in for the "squib" loads? Or they manage to get normal power loads to match closely enough the 'squib' loads? Or they resight the open sights if they ever hunt with normal loads? Or they hunt with the 'squib' loads? Lots of questions.

PS I did notice when taking photos, how some rifles did not recoil much at all. THe thumps on my shoulder felt much more severe than the little jumps of some rifles. Of course it may be the perspective of being behind the butt or not!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: NitroX]
      #286083 - 04/08/16 12:07 AM

Squib loads are all the rage in most range competitions..... IPSC has a minimum power factor so one tries to download to it but not less than..... In PPC, the squib loads are so pronounced that it has been known to have a lightly charged bullets get stuck in the bore on occasion...... I'm not personally against squibbing for practice because any practice is better than none, but if one can't take a full power load when it counts in the field, then it becomes problematic. I think that the notion of having a competition like the double rifle big bore shoots in Australia are great, and maybe extra points or some scoring accelerator factor should be awarded to those who bruise up..... It's a hard thing to measure and police though......

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286084 - 04/08/16 12:14 AM

I am having a lend of the competitors calling the competition special loads "squib" loads. They might be underpowered by the particular cartridge standard, but the individual cartridge and load would have to be considered as to whether they are "squib" loads. Most of these big bore loads could not really be called 'squib' loads, nevertheless I may continue calling them such.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rule303
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286105 - 04/08/16 09:06 AM

Quote:

To be average size is a feature, whether one is buying clothes, shoes, cars, airline seats, or firearms. I unfortunately am not one so blessed. I stand 6' 3" or 187.5 cm. I have 37" sleeves and a rather long neck. Really long necks belong on tall skinny runway models with large breasts. I am ugly enough to stop a clock and I'm just not going to even talk about the breast thing

All this to say that after far too many decades of discomfort and always struggling to fit a square peg in a round hole, I have discovered the wonders of proper fit when it comes to firearms but have also run head long into the hard reality that it costs a great deal more to have things built to fit no matter which company's firearm is the object of one's affection. [/quo

I am 6'2" with a long neck as such I need a long length of pull. I had McMillian make up one of their stock magnum stocks with a15" length of pull and carbon fibre in it. Long stock but fits very well and I am no longer in danger of placing my head to far forward on the stock and wearing the scope.

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Rule303]
      #286107 - 04/08/16 10:45 AM

My favoured LOP is 14 7/8"...... It feels very right to shoulder a well designed stock of correct LOP.... I love Sakos and I also have a soft spot for Weatherbys (with the fancier pimp wood), both of which cause my right hand at the wrist of the stock to soundly smack my nose and have me playing dodge ball with the ocular bell of the scope on harder recoiling calibers. Will Macmillan produce stocks for these models under special order? Do they reproduce the stock designs of the manufacturer with a shooter's specific dimensions incorporated in, or do they produce their own stock shapes? If I could get almost an inch and a half more, particularly on the Weatherby designed stock, I'd be quite happy!!!! The Weatherbys have a triangular forend that helps with holding on, they have a lovely comb design that doesn't beat the sh1t out of my fillings, the recoil pad is lovely and wide, and the offset works extremely well!!!! I have a white fur coat and a purple fur hat with a big feather in it and platform shoes too, but what the hell, the flamboyant Weatherby pimped out design works very well to tame recoil.... If only the LOP was more favourable to tall folk!!!!

Edited by Postman (04/08/16 10:46 AM)

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: NitroX]
      #286108 - 04/08/16 10:52 AM

Quote:

I am having a lend of the competitors calling the competition special loads "squib" loads. They might be underpowered by the particular cartridge standard, but the individual cartridge and load would have to be considered as to whether they are "squib" loads. Most of these big bore loads could not really be called 'squib' loads, nevertheless I may continue calling them such.



I for one do very much appreciate the distinction you are articulating....... A .500 NE hurtling a 450 grain Woody down range over 100 grains of H4350 is still a fearsome barking fire breathing recoiling beast. It isn't anywhere near as violent as a 570 grain max load full house load, but it is enough to make a .30-06 shooter tinkle in his/her thong. You should call them squib loads in clear conscience..... They are not to be reckoned lightly with but there is a marked difference betwixt the two....

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Wayne59
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286111 - 04/08/16 11:54 AM

Back years ago I owned a very early Weatherby (I beleave it was serial no 348) in 300 weatherby mag and at the same time I had a model 70 Win in 300 Weatherby mag. The Weatherby was rather pleasant to shoot and the Winchester would bring tears to your eyes. The Weatherby stock did a lot to tame recoil. Wish I had kept that Weatherby.

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Wayne59]
      #286112 - 04/08/16 12:49 PM

Quote:

Back years ago I owned a very early Weatherby (I beleave it was serial no 348) in 300 weatherby mag and at the same time I had a model 70 Win in 300 Weatherby mag. The Weatherby was rather pleasant to shoot and the Winchester would bring tears to your eyes. The Weatherby stock did a lot to tame recoil. Wish I had kept that Weatherby.



I couldn't agree more!! The Weatherby style may be flamboyant, loathed in some purist circles, but IT WORKS...... Plain and simple...... I have found the Heym stocks with appropriate LOP have been a marvellous godsend, and if truth be told, work quite a bit better for me than most stock designs, but I must give the nod of respect for Weatherby stock design... They work!!!

Maybe Weatherby will one day recognize that there are longish freaks out there that are bigger than the "perfect 5' 9" man that gets all the prettiest girls, can buy perfectly fitting suits directly off the rack, fits into an economy class airline seat, and are totally comfortable with a Joe Average (perfect?) 13.5" LOP...... I'm starting to sound a tad bitter to myself... Ugh!!!!.... Well, holy sh1t, somebody's got to build something someday that fits me off the rack!!!!!

Edited by Postman (04/08/16 01:04 PM)

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Wanabebwana
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286627 - 20/08/16 12:51 PM

I would rather face a charging Bull with the Lott. I would rather fire from 75-100 yds with a Rigby.
I have a .458 Win mag and a .416 Rigby. Because the .458 is a CZ 550 with a 3.85" mag I can load 500gr bullets to a COL of 3.55" and Barns solids to 3.6"+. This allows me to approach or duplicate Lott velocities ( and why I didn't feel the need to have the gun rechambered). Woodleigh make 350-450gr bullets for the .416Rig.That makes it quite versatile and probably a good alternative to a .375H&H if Buff is on the menu and you are only taking one rifle on your Safari. The .458 at Lott velocities kicks noticeably harder than the Rigby.

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #286651 - 20/08/16 11:23 PM

Hello Wannabe:

So based on all the inputs, you have cemented my resolve (thankfully) and have thoroughly convinced me that going with the Rigby was the way to go for me. I say "was" because the rifle order has been placed in a .416 Rigby. I have the bigger big bore spectrum well covered, but the Rigby fills a hole in the small big bore arena.

I have found that the bullet weights are pretty versatile with the .416, with several companies offering light for caliber as well as heavy for caliber bullets. The Barnes 300 grain TSX bullets will be a nice reach out to the caribou bullet with good BC with the long for weight nature of copper.

As I have come to discover in a very big way over the last year, Woodleigh is our friend and offers a comprehensive selection of weights that covers the entire spectrum nicely and will work for close up Dugga boys as well as distant larger antelope, zebra and the like, not to mention moose and possibly large black bear at home when one can't afford the exotic trips, and that would be me most of the time.......

The Rigby would seem to be an excellent caliber, a close utilitarian cousin but to the heavy side of the venerable .375 H&H. Able to sort the big boys, but also able to reach way out there and slay the Oryx in the arid sections of Namibia...... I know my future will be filled with a great deal more whitetail deer and caribou hunting than any other type of big game, and all of my really cool (to me) hunting rifles are waaaaay overboard powerful for such diminutive creatures, but oh well, they will work and with the scoped Rigby, I feel I'll be comfortably able to go chase after even the longer shooting distance caribou every year.

Edited by Postman (20/08/16 11:27 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286654 - 21/08/16 01:39 AM

This makes sense, Postman, but for me, the .375 is about all the fun and gun my shoulder can take.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: DarylS]
      #286656 - 21/08/16 02:02 AM

Hi Daryl:

Yes, my bones are getting older and love recoil less with every passing day. As a part of this firearms journey that I find myself on, I went through the high speed magnum-itis phase early on, and now that I've left that somewhat behind, I'm living out the romantic fantasy ties with the calibers that I could only read about in my youth.. I do have a lovely little Kersten lock combi gun in 7x57R under 16 gauge 2 1/2" circa 1937 that I will eventually gravitate to more and more as I become wiser and or older / more brittle with age. I'm already finding that my .500NE is becoming a bit much, and I wonder sometimes when I'll relent and sell it.

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500Boswell
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286691 - 21/08/16 02:37 PM

I would rather have the Lott ,you dont have to load it flat out if you dont want to ,more proj choices ,can fire a 458 win in it if you have to,when you are hunting you wont notice the boot so much ,better choice imo

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Wanabebwana
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: 500Boswell]
      #286988 - 26/08/16 08:09 AM

I have never heard anyone complain about the performance of .416 Rigby. Factory loads are lower pressure than the Lott and that is an advantage in hot weather that hasn't been mentioned so far. Since reloading is an option you can increase velocities by up to 200fps or reduce the loads with lighter bullets to make clean kills on deer, moose or African plains game with minimal meat damage and a reliable knockout punch. What the Rigby gives up to the .458 in diameter it makes up in penetration. Truly one of the greatest classic British bolt action cartridges.
My .416 Rigby is a CZ 550 Safari Classics American with fancy grade stock. Talley QD rings and a Leupold Vari-X III 1.5-5. I can load 450gr Woodleighs out to a COL of 3.8".

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Postman
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #286995 - 26/08/16 11:07 AM

Hi Wannabe:

That's a nice piece of lumber on that rifle of yours! My thoughts with the Rigby vs the Lott follow along similar to your line of reasoning. The Lott to my mind is a 100 yard kind of rifle. The 500 grain bullets in a DG scenario lose juice at the end of their short rainbow arching trajectory, and the light for caliber bullets have very poor BC and super thin jackets/light construction and just won't effectively reach out too far either. Nothing wrong with that, but one must respect it.

The Rigby can perform on DG with the heavier for caliber 400 grain bullets, and could be applied at distance with a 300 grain TSX or some such other reasonable quickly driven higher BC light(er) bullet. I don't think the Lott has this type of versatility. The Lott has the advantage of being able to consume the ubiquitous .458 Win Mag in the event the airlines mess with one's luggage containing the ammo. I don't know for sure, but I expect the Rigby ammo will be very hard to find in Africa, and likely impossible to be present anywhere nearby any remote bush camp. There was allegedly only a handful of .416 Rigby rifles made originally, and the Rigby is much more a recent phenomenon with quite limited availability comparatively.

Edited by Postman (26/08/16 01:13 PM)

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Wayne59
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #286999 - 26/08/16 11:32 AM

Your CZ is a dead ringer for mine.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: .416 Rigby vs .458 Lott in Heym Express Rfile [Re: Postman]
      #289232 - 19/10/16 01:24 PM

2 things in the Rigby's favour:

The largest elephant ever shot was downed by a purpose built .416 Rigby that the hunter had especially made up for the job. Unless you find a bigger elephant or a tyrannosaur, it should do the job.

Second, Commander Blunt used the .416 Rigby to shoot over 1,000 elephant and is one of the few people in the 1,000+ club. I've never shot one, but in the circumstances I'll take his word for it that it is the ideal calibre. One of the advantages he quotes for it is that it is flat shooting for longer shots, compared to larger calibre rifles. So I'd think that any zebra or antelope at 250 yards is in big trouble.

I owned and used a .416 Rigby in a Ruger Magnum bolt-action. A good rifle, but I sold it with a view to replacing it with a Heym one day. Amongst other things, the Heym has a much bigger magazine.

One idea I had to ensure that Woodleigh solids did not get mixed up with soft nosed bullets in the heat of the moment was to use brass cases for one and nickeled cases for the other - and stick to it.

I had a platinum line put in the Ruger sights, (silver can tarnish). Also, I had the front sight replaced with a larger one. Elephant ivory can tarnish too and so a sight made from wart-hog tusk ivory would be better provided it was well glued in place. I also fitted a wider sling for the heavy rifle and quick detach swivels. The Swarovski scope with 30mm tube (which matched the .416 rifle bulk), had generous eye-relief and a spring loaded ocular cap which I considered good features on this rifle. Warne QD mounts never gave any problems and looked good too.

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