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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: greenshoots]
      #279618 - 21/03/16 03:55 AM

Wayne, I'm confused....???????
In your Saturday the 19th 5:08AM post you referenced: "......When I checked with Shiloh...."

Then in your next post of Saturday the 19th 5:59AM you referenced: "........Both my C Sharps are really nice guns but......"

Since Shiloh and "C Sharps Arms" are totally separate companies, have you had issues with both or just a typo and the issues were brand specific?
None of the current makers of 1874 Sharps type rifles are immune to screw ups; I had a "pre-Bryan" Shiloh in .50 2 1/2" made for me years ago back when Wolf Droege still owned the company.......big burr at the chamber rim recess as delivered...same deal, there was no way it could have been "test fired" before it was shipped.

That said, I think the Shiloh is at the top of the heap; just have to swallow the price and delivery time.......and the excessive expense of importing a Shiloh for those guys in Oz, Canada or elsewhere makes the Italian rifles very attractive.

For a "user grade" target or hunting rifle my experience is that the Pedersoli's are perfectly fine.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Wayne59
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Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #279619 - 21/03/16 04:23 AM

My reference to Shilo was because before I ordered I check to see what the expected delivery time was and C sharps was 1/3 that of Shilo. I own rifles from both manufactures and one Italian sharps. I like all of my Sharps but when you spend as much as some of these cost you shouldn't Have to Iron out there bugs. I judge companies not only by there products but also by their service after the sale. If I call with a problem and I get excuses and denials instead of action then I will probable buy some where else the next time. By the way I found the chip when I was packing the gun and I ran an oily patch down the bore. It snagged the chip as I was pulling it out. I cleaned the gun before I ever tried to fire it but some how the patch did not hook the chip. I don't understand why it would be less expensive to import an Italian rifle into Australia. and Canada than it would be to import an American rifle. As far as witch is the better gun You will probable get a different opion depending on who you ask and witch one they own.

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sharps4590
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Reged: 09/03/16
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Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: Wayne59]
      #279624 - 21/03/16 06:32 AM

Tariff's maybe?

I'm prejudiced. I looked at and fired a few other of the then rare makers of Sharps style rifles in the early 80's and ended up picking Shiloh. 'Course it was 1/3 of what they cost now but that didn't stop me from buying two more over the years. However, I've not heard of many owners of the Pedersoli Sharps that were disappointed.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

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500Boswell
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Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: sharps4590]
      #279627 - 21/03/16 09:00 AM

Pedersoli has a Dealer in Australia who import direct from Italy, not the U.S ,if you import a Pedersoli,Shiloh,C.Sharps from the U.S, then there is the exchange Rate, 75cent Aust Dollar to the U.S dollar,then 10% GST ,Freight and Insurance, then if you employ someone to do all the paperwork for you and dealing with customs,importing etc, could cost you another $1000.00 so it adds up ,then you have to Wait for all that to happen to get your rifle, which could be months [provided there is no hold ups or hassles with Customs ]on top of the build ''Time'' which doesnt always happen, one rifle i had built[ not a Sharps] i was told 8 Months build time, so planned around that [and for a hunt which it missed] ,was 18 Months before i finally got it

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TN_Longhunter
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Reged: 03/01/06
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Loc: Lebanon, TN, USA
Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: sharps4590]
      #279629 - 21/03/16 09:21 AM

Thought I'd toss my 2 cents in and that may be what it is worth. I have Pedersoli, Shiloh, C. Sharps and Garrett Arms Sharps. I know, why have so many? I love Sharps. Pedersoli makes good guns but be careful as they finish the guns based on the order placed. Some dealers/jobbers order with topnotch bluing and wood while others order the cheapest possible. The higher end models will all be top notch. I'm talking the basic models. They will shoot, I have competed with a Pedersoli in BPCR and did well with it. My early Shilohs are good but the fit and finish is not as good as the ones made in MT. C. Sharps are also very good and are also better than the early shilohs. Shiloh has the name and thus sell better. If you are willing to call C Sharps and ask what is on the showroom wall you might get a rifle shipped out that day. Two I have were bought by the first owners that way. Garrett Arms were made in the 70s with Italian parts that were finished in the states. They are reported to interchange parts with originals. I have had two and they were well made, good (not great) finish and shoot very well.

So, if looking to go as cheap as possible, get the cheapest Pedersoli you can find. Live with the finish and fit. Little more money then get one of the higher grades. Step up in cost and go with Shiloh or C Sharps. Buy used, off the rack (when possible) or order and wait. There are some cheaper Italian makes out there and I would recommend staying away from some of those. My first was one of those. Poor quality and wouldn't shoot a 6 foot group at 100 Yards.

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Wayne59
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Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: TN_Longhunter]
      #279633 - 21/03/16 12:42 PM

The first Sharps I owned was an IAB. Ugliest sharps ever made. They put a safty on the breach block. Funny thing was the dam rifle shot very well.

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TN_Longhunter
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Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: Wayne59]
      #279640 - 22/03/16 12:05 AM

You mentioned IBA, I wasn't but since you did I'll say that was my first and wouldn't hit the target at 100 yds. Since then I have heard from people like you that had good shooters. Guess I got the classic Monday morning rifle. That little safety is very easy to remove on the breech block. I was aggravated by the extra step to move it out of the way on every shot.

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Wayne59
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Re: Shiloh or C Sharps? [Re: TN_Longhunter]
      #279642 - 22/03/16 01:31 AM

My safety was history 30 seconds after it came out of the box. Gun was sold to fund some other project. I have had two Ami Sports and they both shot well. The biggest problems I see is the wood the Italian use would make better boat oars than gun stocks and the finishes are not to my liking. If your are on a limited budget than the Italian sharps are a good buy. Just look it over carefully before you buy it so you don't get stuck with one like the last Kodiak I bought.

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Englishman
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Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Lot,France
Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #279700 - 24/03/16 01:06 AM



The C, Sharps rifles I have inspected have been imported to UK, it is quite possible that these examples have been let out of the works as exports, (we will never see them again), but the people that bought them payed a premium price for them, the wood to metal fit was less than I expected on both of them, but then they were fitted with the standard "plain Jane" wood that C,Sharps rifles come with as standard. The cost in Europe, of all things appears to be much higher than in USA, and I think that there must be some shortcut on quality to achieve this low price, I have never seen poor quality finish or fit on either Pedersoli or Uberti guns in Europe, but I have read of many really bad examples of both manufacturers products in USA, I must say that my experience of these products is from before 5 years ago.
Cast ! No not cast, FORGED, this is far better than the cheap and inferior process of machining from solid billet, (although it is strong enough), the grain structure of a forged action is just so much better than a short grained machining, the forging process takes much more equipment than does pure machining, as the components are CNC machined after forging,one only has to look at the extremely crude offerings of Ruger to see how much, (or less) effort is put into manufacture to be able to sell at a rock bottom price. As a comparison of strength, you would not machine a vehicle engine connecting rod from a billet, it is forged for strength!





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Wayne59
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: Englishman]
      #279719 - 24/03/16 07:42 AM

To use your comparison they do machine connecting rods from billets for dragsters and other race cars. This is done for added strength and about three times the cost.

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Englishman
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: Wayne59]
      #279906 - 27/03/16 07:42 AM

Well I am sure you are correct in this statement, but the fact is that to forge a metal object that is subject to stress is the way things are normally done , on any component, once the "grain" of the material is cut by machining, then that is a weak stress point, if the component is forged, then there is a "grain" flow which follows the contours of the component shape, quite why a connecting rod manufacturer would choose to break with conventional knowledge I have no idea, I will certainly look into that . The fact remains that a machined action has been proven to be adequately strong, and as there are less operations it must be cheaper to produce, one only requires a CNC machining centre to produce an action body, also most cartridges used in Falling Block rifles, (and Doubles for that matter) use cartridges which develop relatively low pressure, that being an advantage when these guns are used in their normal environment, hence the reason for the very large, (by American standards),cartridge cases used with Cordite, the propellant of the day they were designed, and now a problem with "modern" propellants.

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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: Englishman]
      #279925 - 27/03/16 02:53 PM

Got to have a shot out of my Pedersoli Silhouette 45/70 over the long weekend ,with its loooooooong 32 inch barrel !! i tried a load [smokeless as im not really set up for black powder yet ] from loading manual, 40 grs AR2208 ,Federal primer ,Hawkebury River 405gr lead ,i have tried this load before in my Marlin 45/70 and the problem is incomplete burning of the powder, alot of fouling and unburnt powder granules [should have known better ] anyway after several shots, then blackening the silver front sight and trying different reading glasses as my eyesight is getting bad [getting old ]and cheating using the Lead sled to avoid my heartbeat ,at 100 metres i could get shots into one inch ! provided i put a patch through the barrel after each shot to remove all the fouling ,so i was very happy with it !!! ,i was impressed with it!!! i should have brought other loads with me to try ,but ran out of time,the loads were on target in the black at 100 Metres [even more of a wonder !!!] The workmanship on my rifle is perfect in every respect and its accurate too, with the first load i have tried in it ,so you cant ask anymore than that !!!!

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Wayne59
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #279927 - 27/03/16 09:46 PM

Congratulations. Wait till you get set up to shoot Black powder. You need to bump the bullet weight up to around 500gr or 525gr. Try one of the lyman Postell molds if you can get your hands on one. I took three of my sharps to the range last week. What a hoot. 650 grs bullets in the 50/90. There very noticeable when you pull the trigger.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #279941 - 28/03/16 06:41 AM

Quote:

Got to have a shot out of my Pedersoli Silhouette 45/70 over the long weekend ,with its loooooooong 32 inch barrel !! i tried a load [smokeless as im not really set up for black powder yet ] from loading manual, 40 grs AR2208 ,Federal primer ,Hawkebury River 405gr lead ,i have tried this load before in my Marlin 45/70 and the problem is incomplete burning of the powder, alot of fouling and unburnt powder granules [should have known better ] anyway after several shots, then blackening the silver front sight and trying different reading glasses as my eyesight is getting bad [getting old ]and cheating using the Lead sled to avoid my heartbeat ,at 100 metres i could get shots into one inch ! provided i put a patch through the barrel after each shot to remove all the fouling ,so i was very happy with it !!! ,i was impressed with it!!! i should have brought other loads with me to try ,but ran out of time,the loads were on target in the black at 100 Metres [even more of a wonder !!!] The workmanship on my rifle is perfect in every respect and its accurate too, with the first load i have tried in it ,so you cant ask anymore than that !!!!



If you can get Benchmark - I think in Australia, Hodgdon's Benchmark is ADI Benchmark 2 - a load of 48.0gr. in my Sharps (35"bl.) makes 1,850fps with 405gr. RP's and put 10 rounds into 7/8" off the bags. I have a Soule Tang sight and Sharps Aperture sight. This load is only running about 22,000CUP according to Hodgdon's Annual Manual. Good powder burn and nicely accurate, I'd say. 1,850fps is noted to be about maximum for good bullet performance with the quite soft Remington 405gr. FN.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TonyD227
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Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #279947 - 28/03/16 08:26 AM

Boswell,

There is also Trail Boss (ADI) available in Aust at the moment.

13gr behind a 405gr cast rd will get you around 1000fps. Its a fast burning powder and bulky so it fills a case well. I find I don't have any residue in my 23" Sabatti with this load.

I have one and a half containers and now that I am reloading 45/70 and 38 spcl (Single Action) I might get another container to make sure I can keep going during the next drought.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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500Boswell
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Loc: Queensland
Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: TonyD227]
      #279951 - 28/03/16 09:15 AM

Good thanks for the advice on the powders Gents,will look for the Trail Boss and Benchmark 2,thats impressive Darryl S, 10 shots into 7/8 !!! ,will look at getting some powder this week , i ordered a couple of Lyman moulds from Buffalo Arms will see how they go ,
cheers

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DarylS
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #279956 - 28/03/16 12:19 PM

Any standard primer works well with the Benchmark - or Trail Boss. With other powders in these straight cases, I found I had to use CCI 250's or Rem 9 1/2 Mag. to get decent burning.

The trouble with Trail Boss, is they become plinking loads only, not good enough imho for hunting.

The .45/0 can be an excellent hunting round, capable of producing terrific smack-down-killing power on many species of big game. I feel trail boss is nothing more than a plinker for shooting tin cans.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TonyD227
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Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: DarylS]
      #279974 - 28/03/16 09:07 PM

Quote:

I feel trail boss is nothing more than a plinker for shooting tin cans.



That's pretty much what I use it for.

I use the TB load to practice my snap shooting at 25 and 50M.

It shoots a little low but its good enough for practicing.

I always start and finish with full loads (the 50gr of 2207 with 405 Woodleigh's gets my attention) so I have a bit of a warm shoulder to remind me what the real thing is

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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Ireload2
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Reged: 11/08/13
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Loc: USA
Re: Pedersoli Sharps ? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #280367 - 05/04/16 06:49 PM

Forging is totally unnecessary for most firearms applications. Most designs are way more robust than necessary and gain nothing from a forging.
Forging is what is often called a near net shape process and many times it is bragged about for superior grain direction when that is not the real reason it is used. It is often used because there is less material to remove just like machining an investment casting.

Today most connecting rods are made by the sintered/powdered metal process and the rods are cracked to separate the cap from the rod body. Not as strong you say? Well not as strong as titanium rods either but I bet you don't own a set of titanium rods and never will. Some things are just not needed in our everyday world.

The sky high costs for things in Europe and the UK is due to added value taxes, local profit margins, excessive shipping costs and the smaller market. Shipping to the UK is about twice the shipping cost to Australia from the US. You can be sure that US manufacturers do not make cheap models just for import to Europe. Sometimes there are differences in style and tastes that translate into European models but I have never ran into anything like you claim.

American powders, bullets, cartridge cases, loading dies, presses etc etc etc are all much more expensive in Europe and it has nothing to do with anything except your own market issues. You get the same loading dies as everyone else.

Many European products are less expensive here than they are in Europe. I remember one of your citizens commenting about buying a couple of expensive German or Austrian rifle scopes in New York.
He came to the US for some other purpose but the savings on the two scopes nearly paid for his air fare.

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