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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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sourdoughsmitty
.224 member


Reged: 08/11/15
Posts: 19
Loc: washington and alaska
12 ga double slug guin project ?'s
      #273021 - 11/11/15 10:39 AM

I have always been attracted to the double rifle ,and while like many cannot afford one I am looking at building a 12 bore rifled slug gun . Th ereason for the slug versus rifle is that my current action is a savage model b fox ,the only rifle I might safely be able to build on this would be a 45/70 so I was thinking about instead using some 12 ga rifled barrels as the pressures would still be at shotgun levels so lockup should be ok. I do have ellis browns book and a very informative book it is I am also a machinist so doing the metal work ould not be too hard . one of the questions I have is has anyone here built something like this on a leseer action like mine ?

thanks smitty

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: sourdoughsmitty]
      #273030 - 11/11/15 02:54 PM

I worked up loads for a 1900 era 12 bore using round balls. I was able to get it shooting about 8" to 10" groups at 100 yards, with 500gr. round balls running 1,550fps with both black powder (7 drams) and smokeless loads.

The smokeless loads kicked about 1/3rd of the BP loads, however they both shot to the sights.

A rifled version would have been super!!!!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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4al2
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Reged: 27/09/11
Posts: 36
Loc: delaware usa
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: DarylS]
      #273050 - 11/11/15 10:04 PM

There is a cheap strong that everyone over look,which is the Biakal..Let me know about this action.I am getting ready to have one made this action ,which will be a 12ga. slug gun..I know that Daryl also used this action..

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: sourdoughsmitty]
      #273056 - 12/11/15 01:21 AM

Smitty,
Welcome to the Nitro Express website, I think you will like it here. Lots of nice people on here. Your donor gun should be fine for building a slug gun, either in 12 or 20 gauge. I have some nice E.R. Shaw 12 gauge barrels for sale at $100.00 each. These will make up into fully rifled sleever barrels that are almost 24 inches long. I also have the top and bottom ribs to go along with these barrels, if you need them. I have 20 gauge Verney Carron bull barrel rifle blanks that are 30 inches long. They are $300.00 a pair plus shipping and will be large enough to sleeve into 12 gauge actions.
I have built slug guns on lesser actions such as the Berettas, a Browning BSS, Spanish Lauronas, etc., and have seen them built on L.C. Smiths, F.N.'s, Savages, and Stevens shotguns. Let me know if I can be of help to you on this project. If you want them, I can also send you diagrams on the best profiles for sleever barrels in 12 or 20 gauge. That will help you to reduce the weight on your new double to get it balanced properly and have it come in at around 7 pounds or less. Bob

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39881
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: 4al2]
      #273062 - 12/11/15 01:42 AM

Not from gunsmithing point of view, but if there is a large cost involved, either from a dollar point of view, or from a personal time and resources viewpoint, if the gun ever was sold, the return might be less than the cost.

If the plan is to have a personal gun to enjoy, that might not be relevant.

The Greener Empire side by side shotguns were used to make some double rifles out of. Not bad shotguns in themselves, but not expensive if the plain models. When made into a .577 double rifle, or a cape gun in .577/12g they realised about A$4500 to A$6000 on the resale market I believe. One of our members has one, can't remember the price it sold for, from one member to another.

Another plan can be to try to purchase a 12-bore double rifle. If a plainer model without much engraving the price may not be too expensive. Probably not that easy to source and would take some time.

But again if doing a lot of work yourself, and for a personal fun gun, the above might not be relevant at all.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39881
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Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #273065 - 12/11/15 01:55 AM

Quote:

Smitty, ...



Wonderful members and kind offers.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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sourdoughsmitty
.224 member


Reged: 08/11/15
Posts: 19
Loc: washington and alaska
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: NitroX]
      #273087 - 12/11/15 11:21 AM

thanks so far for all the input , I was going to look for an extra set of barrels this way the existing shot gun barrels would still be there along with a set of rifled tubes sort of a poor mans gentlemens kit,as we all know it costs nothing to dream about it . bird hunter I will give it some thought after I do more study time with ellis browns book . does anyone here reload for slugs? seems this might be the best way to find a pet load, and yes nitro I agree there seems to be a lot of knowledge on this board and wihtout the usual politcs you see on others I have found the reading on the varied subjects pretty interesting the one subject i find most interesting is the topic of the sabatti that cabelas handles pity for the bad rep as thye look quite nice
thanks again smitty

--------------------
n/a

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: sourdoughsmitty]
      #273118 - 12/11/15 10:59 PM

Smitty,
I load my own slug loads using cast Lyman flat nosed slugs. I load them inside Winchester AA wads and hulls and star crimp them. I tend to load up towards the top end on these because I know the guns will take it, 1500 to 1600 FPS. These are accurate in fully rifled barrels and hit like sledgehammers.
When you buy one of their molds you get the loading data and the recommended powders to use. It's all pretty straight forward and easy to do. Because the slugs are fully protected by the shot cups, I can load dead soft slugs in them that will expand to a very large size. I have one 20 gauge slug that I found after it went though four gallon jugs of water, it is flattened out to the size of a quarter. I do fill the hollow bases with a special wax mixture to keep the wads from being pounded up inside the slugs. Bob

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #273120 - 13/11/15 12:12 AM

Smitty,
I hate to burst your bubble about having a gun with two barrel sets but the fact is that they really don't work out all that well, for several reasons. First of all there is the problem of having sighting planes that are at two different heights, the shotgun being somewhat lower than the rifle sights, even if you get them down as close as possible to the barrels, there is a difference. Rifle stocks also tend to be longer than most shotgun stocks. This is because they are fired by two different methods. Slug guns fall right into the rifle category if sights or a scope is used. Then there is the weight problem which I am not going to go into here.
In my opinion, the two barrel sets with one rifle barrel set and one smooth bored set, just don't work out that well. For one thing, if you are hunting when there are several seasons open, lets say Pheasant and Deer seasons, I can almost guarantee that no matter which barrel you have installed on the gun at the time, when game is encountered, you will have the wrong barrel on the gun. The only gun I have used that could have worked out well in cases like this, was a drilling that I used to own. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to shoot deer here in Iowa anymore with a rifle caliber, and even when we could, it was Does only! Bob

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sourdoughsmitty
.224 member


Reged: 08/11/15
Posts: 19
Loc: washington and alaska
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #273151 - 13/11/15 11:59 AM

yeah bird hunter been there done that ,go grouse hunting and all you see is deer , my idea for this came from looking at a lot of the old vintage sets that used to be made most of them from higher end makers , so the stock issue as you relate must have been quite a paradox trying to balance the sighting planes i believe the rifle stock much like a trap stock has a higher comb .the weight problem of course would be that the slug barrels would weigh a lot more than the smooth bores i have a cape gun 12x.308 savage 2400 made by valmet back in the day there is quite a story behind this one ,as i am also alaskan it served me well ,especially as the p/o had honed the choke out so as to fire slugs as well ,i have a savage 410'er insert so it is pretty versatile
thanks again smitty

--------------------
n/a

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: sourdoughsmitty]
      #273195 - 14/11/15 06:02 AM

Smitt6y,
That 12 X 308 Savage sounds like one very useful gun, especially since you have a 410 liner for it.
The 410 could be used as a survival gun to shoot rabbits and squirrels. Would the 410 be large enough to reliably kill Ptarmajen on the ground? Bob

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #273211 - 14/11/15 10:09 AM

Out to about 25 yards, most 410's handle grouse and ptarmigan just fine. The 1/2 ounce 2 1/2" load usually patterns better than the 3" load.

The long shot column does not hinder shooting on the ground, but the tiny inner core killing pattern & wide wounding outer pattern of the 3" makes the round suck much of the time.

I love my little .410 single for grouse, but would like a SXS for birds that fly prematurely upon approach. The 1/2oz. #6 load works well for me.
Loaded in .444 Marlin cases, even better. Shortened .410 wad over 12gr. Unique with 1/2oz. #6 and a .44 mag gas check crimped over the load as a top wad. Nice even patterning load and good to 30yards. In my little single, it is better than anything you can purchase.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
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Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: DarylS]
      #273237 - 15/11/15 12:09 AM

Daryl,
That 410/444 load sounds like a real winner! Makes me wish I had a .410 again. Bob

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ducmarc
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Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #273241 - 15/11/15 01:26 AM

Been wanting to build a 28 ga. Slug double brenke slugs work good but .550 bore would be fun.would be light and handy

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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sourdoughsmitty
.224 member


Reged: 08/11/15
Posts: 19
Loc: washington and alaska
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: ducmarc]
      #273295 - 15/11/15 03:54 PM

hey guys i find that when back in alaska i buy more .410 than 12g more meat left when ya get after the bunnies and grouse, the story on this savage made by valmet is i got it back in the 70's from an old trapper when i was stationed at eilson afb near fairbanks . i used to spend a lot of time in the bush so it was ideal with th echoke honed out it handles slugs too . me and a partner got caught in an early freeze up in the ft yukon area so we cached everything and flew out as there was no way to make it back to or down the yukon before it locked up.i wrapped it in a wool blanket so it would breathe and sealed the cache ,this one being a ground type ,well i thought i had lost the map to it and it was gone forever but 8 yrs ago when preparing to leave country to caretake my wife I found the map! well curiousity got the better of me and i returned to the area ,someone had found the cache as the valmet had been removed from it's cover and used a bit but not put back the way i had it ,figured it was a native because he left it there a white man would have taken it not realizing the importance of said cache. well after the native found it so did a bear ,which left the long brown calliing card hairs of his , he tore the place up good and got into the rocksalt that was there and you can guess where it spilled-------- the ol valmet looks like craters of the moon especially the shotgun barrel but the .308 still shoots wiht authority and i use ligtht loads inn the shotgun side there have been a few times when i thought about rebarreling it but the voice from within it always whispers please no ,if i could only talk what a story it would be so ugly remains but deadly she is especially whe the snot nose new in the box from wal mart looks down their barrels at her . there was an article in the master back woodsmaqn maganine about using .444 brass for loading shells for it
thanks smitty

--------------------
n/a

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: sourdoughsmitty]
      #273315 - 16/11/15 12:28 AM

Smitty,
The very first double rifle that I built, about 25 years ago, was a 12 gauge double rifle, exactly as you are considering. It's the perfect first project for the very reasons that you cite. I used a 12-bore gun by Neumann Brothers of Liege, Belgium, but a Fox Model B would work just fine! I use only Lightfield 1 1/4 ounce HyBred Exp Sabot Slugs in mine. These are superbly accurate and kill deer like the Hammer of Thor! Three weeks ago, scope-mounted, off the bench, at 100 yards, my first two shots from the right barrel were in one ragged hole, and the composite group was 4"!

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Shackleton
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Loc: Iowa
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: 4al2]
      #274079 - 26/11/15 12:19 PM

Quote:

There is a cheap strong that everyone over look,which is the Biakal..Let me know about this action.I am getting ready to have one made this action ,which will be a 12ga. slug gun..I know that Daryl also used this action..


I've wondered for quite some time if the Baikal .410 action would work as a donor gun for a .22 hornet DR conversion. Well beyond my skills to build one but the idea won't go away.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 ga double slug guin project ?'s [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #274083 - 26/11/15 02:40 PM

Quote:

Daryl,
That 410/444 load sounds like a real winner! Makes me wish I had a .410 again. Bob



I was astounded at the tight pattern at 25 yards, Bob. I cleanly killed flying grouse at 30 yards with it. I could not hit them with 3" and only rarely with 2 1/2" hulls & 7 1/2's. I used 6's in the .444 cases. This was after opening the choke a bit with a reamer, to Mod.

Also Shackelton - I've never built nor used a Baikal SXS or OV 12 bore for round ball loads. The gun I used was a fairly early 1900's gun, double bite, probably a British "Colonial" (for export to the Colonies) gun, with "Fluid Steel" marked on the rib near the breach. they w3ere 28" and IMP Mod choked - .705". I cut them off at 24" and installed sights in the rib.(D&T for scope as well) However, I see no reason for not using the Bailkal. They Veddy Good Stronk actions.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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