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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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neverguided
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Reged: 14/04/13
Posts: 11
Loc: California, USA
8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling...
      #271423 - 06/10/15 08:05 AM

Hi guys, I'm looking for some informed perspective on a 12 ga./8x33mmR drilling in terms of intended usage and market. Was this likely a gun intended for export to the United States, or was the 32 WCF/32-20 Win. used in Germany for game such a roe deer and black grouse? Thanks!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: neverguided]
      #271424 - 06/10/15 08:39 AM

I have never heard of that 'short' chambering up here in Northern BC.

Considering it is called 12/8x33mmR - seems to lean towards the European market. An 87gr. bullet at 1,300fps is quite suitable for deer and other game here. In the modern highspeed smokeless loading, it might do in a pinch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: DarylS]
      #271436 - 06/10/15 03:19 PM

a combination gun for such a very american cartridge is very likely build for the american market

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: lancaster]
      #271440 - 06/10/15 09:36 PM

The .32-20 WCF was not unknown in pre-WW1 Germany. The 1908 Akah catalog listed both American and German, Uttendoerfer, cartridges, lead bullet/black powder loads as well as jacketed/smokeless ones. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl, then made their single shot break open "Tell IV" rifle in .32-20. Drillings and combination guns were available on order. Apparently the .32-20 was a quite popular varmint/small game load then over here, though replaced soon in popularity by the .22 Winchester Center Fire aka 5.6x35R Vierling. Both cartridges were used then for vermin like crows and fox, plus small game like blackgame, capercaillie and up to roe deer, though less than marginal for roebuck.

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DarylS
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Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: kuduae]
      #271443 - 07/10/15 01:57 AM

Lancaster, if made for the American market - it most assuredly would not have been called the 8x33R, just as the .22 Hornet for the Euro market is called the 5.6x35R.

It is highly unlikely such a combination gun would appeal to anyone over here and certainly not enough to cause such a gun be especially built for the 2 or perhaps 3 people who might collect oddities like that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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neverguided
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Reged: 14/04/13
Posts: 11
Loc: California, USA
Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: DarylS]
      #271492 - 08/10/15 04:35 AM

Thank you for your responses.

Kuduae, thank you for the historical German perspective. My collection of catalogs is not that extensive, but I did find the case listed in a 1935 catalog as a component for reloading.

You mentioned that both blackpowder/lead and smokeless/jacketed were offered. Do they indicate what the bullet weight and velocity were, and do you ever see reference to the high-velocity loadings that we had here in the U.S. (e.g. "Winchester High Velocity")?

My understanding is that blackgame/capercaillie are often shot with rifles from treetops? What distances? What rifles are popular now?

Thanks again. I have used the 32-20 on a variety of game here, from tree squirrels and rabbits (lead std. vel.) to deer and javelina (jacketed WHV), and was curious about the German usage.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: neverguided]
      #271512 - 08/10/15 09:02 PM

Sorry, but the old catalogs available to me don't give any bullet or powder weights nor ballistics. I assume the American loads listed were merely the then (1908 – 1910) Winchester factory loads, the Uttendoerfer (later RWS) one being merely a copy of the W-W blackpowder load. It's your turn to find out if the Winchester hv load was available then.
Both blackgame and capercillie cocks were once hunted here in Germany during the courting season. Blackgame was most often shot from blinds, as this species prefers treeless, open heather and mosses. Displaying capercaillies were stalked and shot out of the tree. Such stalking was an art, described her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_capercaillie In both cases ranges were short, 20 to 40 yards. Due to changes in environment both species are now on the brink of extinction in Germany, not hunted any more for about 50 years.
For use on roebuck and any other hoofed game the .32-20 is outlawed in Germany since 1934, as it does not meet the minimum requirements: energy 1000 Joule at 100 meters, all other min 6.5mm = .25" bullet and 2000 Joule at 100 m.

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neverguided
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Reged: 14/04/13
Posts: 11
Loc: California, USA
Re: 8x33mmR or 32 WCF drilling... [Re: kuduae]
      #271588 - 10/10/15 01:36 PM

Kuduae, thanks for this great information. I'm sure the sights will indicate which loading this drilling was sighted for once I begin load development. Thanks again everyone.

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