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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
.577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load?
      #268150 - 18/07/15 12:29 AM

I have a .577 hammerless Holland 3" BPE with steel barrels in excellent condition. Am contemplating using 75 grains of H4198 and backer rod with a 610 grain lead bullet. I used to use black powder many years ago in a Hammer Holland .577 3" BPE and haven't shot one since. I have Graeme Wright's new double rifle reloading book and really think smokeless is the way to go. Any horror stories out there about using backer rod vs Dacron? Any ringed chambers from using backer rod? I really like the idea of less recoil, no smoke and easier to regulate. Thanks for your input, I am no expert by any means!

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 8borerifle]
      #268152 - 18/07/15 01:41 AM

.577 Hammerless H&H, very sweet! Pictures please!!!

You say you have Graeme Wright's book? Read (then re-read) 3rd edition, Chapter 6, pages 129-141........covers "nitro for black" and has the answers to your questions.
5/8 foam backer rod is what you want for .577
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #268153 - 18/07/15 02:05 AM

Thanks Mike, I'll try to load a few pictures today. I have been reading the book and the part on barrel ringing is not real clear. I know of one BPE double rifle that had chambers ringed even though it was loaded with a correct amount of powder and Dacron. Bottle neck cartridge and Damascus barrels instead of steel and straight case like my rifle. Roscoe seems do do very well with his Alex Henry .577 BPE with backer rod, Ross Seyfred likes Dacron.

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 8borerifle]
      #268157 - 18/07/15 02:54 AM

Curious, what do your proof marks show and was the rifle marked as to intended load?

2 thoughts:
1) If your chosen 610grain does not regulate well you might look into the Woodleigh 650grain .577 BPE bullet, that was a typical Nitro for Black weight. Midway has them in stock.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/129647/...=ProductFinding

2) as to chamber ringing; seems, from most reliable sources over the years, to be involved with reduced loads and shotgun/handgun powders such as Bullseye, Unique, 2400, etc.
Doubtful there is an issue with full power standard velocity loads using H4198 or similar and backer rod or Dacron.

I prefer backer rod in my .577, just less mess than the large wads of Dacron.
- Mike


--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #268158 - 18/07/15 03:48 AM

Quote:


I prefer backer rod in my .577, just less mess than the large wads of Dacron.
- Mike




+1, that Dacron leaves a mess of big wads of it scattered about.

Mine likes the 650 Woodie also.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: AkMike]
      #268159 - 18/07/15 04:29 AM

I have used a lot of backer rod in .450BPE, .500BPE, and .577BPE. I am yet to see any adverse effect.

I have also used Dacron, foam rubber, and felt wads. My preference is backer rod.

One caveat: backer rod doesn't work well in bottleneck cartridges. In my .450/400 3-1/4" BPE I use either foam rubber wads or Dacron.

One last note. Sherman Bell contacted me earlier this year urging reconsideration of the use of backer rod. He told me he personally knows of a rifle whose chambers were ringed, and he thinks backer rod is the culprit. I don't have any more detail than that. It always seems there are contrary experiences or anecdotes.

I wouldn't hesitate to shoot that H&H with proper NfB loads. Let us know how she does.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: CptCurl]
      #268167 - 18/07/15 06:45 AM

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your help! The left side of the action is engraved "charge 6 Drams Case 3" and the proof marks are black powder with .577 stamp. The rifle was made in 1895 for the Nizam of Hyderabad and was marked with a Gold 3 on the top lever. A good friend of mine has the records of all rifles taken from one of the Nizam's palaces. This rifle was listed along with rifles number 1 (10 bore Holland double rifle) and number 2 (.500 Holland double rifle). Here is an attemp of some pictures. The picture of the three rifles together are a 10 Bore Reilly double rifle, .577 Holland and a .450/.400 2 3/8 Cogswell and Harrison.

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 8borerifle]
      #268169 - 18/07/15 07:30 AM

Beautiful victorian hunting battery. You are ready for India..:LOL

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #268170 - 18/07/15 08:02 AM

8 bore rifle - I have no horror stories re: the filler but if you are using 4198 you MUST use Magnum primers

I did not in a .577 Snider chambered DR and had unburnt powder and a bullet that only just cleared the barrel - definitely not good!

Good luck shooting such a wonderful piece of history, my 8 bore H&H ball gun is just ahead of the .577 3" as my favourite rifle

TH44

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #268172 - 18/07/15 08:15 AM

Beautiful rifles!

I have had success using the Kynoch foam wads in my 500-450 3 1/4" magnum. Preferred that to backing rod for the bottleneck cartridge as mentioned above.
Look forward to more results.

Cheers, Chris

Edited by Rockdoc (18/07/15 08:15 AM)

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #268173 - 18/07/15 08:50 AM

Oh that is a beauty! .....and cased with accessories AND bullet mould. Nice.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #268179 - 18/07/15 11:09 AM

Thanks again for all of the great responses! I must confess that the mold is a reproduction Holland style mold numbered to the rifle by Mike Rowe. I don't know how many accessories are original to the rifle, I do know that David Winks of Holland and Holland acquired it from the Nizam's palace Armory along with hundreds of other rifles and guns, accessories and cases. I dealt with one of the original guys from Australia that imported rifles from the Maharaja's collections. He said the rifles would come shipped in one 55 gallon sealed drum, the accessories in another and the cases in a third. The guy had to put the cased sets together again as best he could! I think I will try the backer rod and 75 grains of 4198, 215 magnum primers and the 610 grain led bullets to start. I will let you know how it shoots. I really appreciate your help. I am 67 years old and have collected double rifles since 1971. I very rarely have shot any of them and am a novice at it. The first double rifle that I ever owned was a w W Greener top lever hammer 8 Bore double rifle that had a cracked stock. Not knowing any better then, I had it restocked. Last I heard a guy named Fish owned it in Alaska. Always wanted that double rifle back!

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 8borerifle]
      #268217 - 19/07/15 08:59 AM

Wow - great collection, should be shot more often though!
CptCurl is the guru for the .577
enjoy your toys & hopefully they'll regulate for you straight up!
93x64mm

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jaz
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #268226 - 19/07/15 08:37 PM

8Bore
I checked my notes for this:
70 grains of 4198 with a 600 grain bullet,
74 with a 650,
Kynoch foam.
Will kill anything on this earth especially with the new bullets available.
JZ

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8borerifle
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Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: jaz]
      #268230 - 19/07/15 10:39 PM

Thanks John, I really appreciate the info. I certainly don't want to chance damaging the rifle. I also ordered a mold and wads for my 10 Bore double rifle. Last double rifle I have shot was a .450 Purdey BPE about 10 years ago.

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jgrabow
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Reged: 22/12/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Winter Wisconsin
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 8borerifle]
      #268231 - 19/07/15 11:12 PM

up to 75 gr's of 4198 + a single Kynoch foam wad leaves a gap between the wad and the bullet. is this OK, or are two wads used?

--------------------
Jim

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nopride2
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: jgrabow]
      #268237 - 20/07/15 01:11 AM

Use two wads if there is air space. Even three won't hurt.

Dave

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Bidgee
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Reged: 08/04/15
Posts: 711
Loc: Northern Rivers, NSW
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #268332 - 22/07/15 08:45 AM

Quote:

Beautiful victorian hunting battery. You are ready for India..:LOL



That is a lovely collection of rifles you have there! You must hear the call of a safari every time you handle them.

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1464
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: nopride2]
      #268338 - 22/07/15 11:30 AM

Quote:

Use two wads if there is air space. Even three won't hurt.

Dave


Another alternative is felt wads in a straight case. Punch them out with a 5/8" arch punch or just grab up a bag of 1000 .58cal "wonder wads".
I got the Wonder Wads as they work equally well if I occasionally use black powder just for the original feel, smoke, and smell of that bygone era.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=163384&CAT=4115

Stack them in as needed to fill up the airspace.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: .577 Holland Royal Hammerless BPE safe smokeless load? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #269164 - 12/08/15 12:14 AM

8bore,
Just checked my records and I'm using 70 Gr IMR 4198, CCI mag primers and 17 Gr dacron filler under a 610 Gr NEI bullet in my 577 3". Getting 1775 FPS with excellent regulation and accuracy. I'm using the mag primers because I sometimes got hang fires in the 577 case using regular primers. I think this has to do with the larger diameter of the case, the mag primers solved the problem.
Good Luck.

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