Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: .375 H&H in a double rifle.

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1
Kynoch
.224 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 40
Loc: Iowa, United States
.375 H&H in a double rifle.
      #26692 - 23/02/05 02:40 PM

I know that a lot has been posted about the negatives associated with the .458 win in a double rifle. Much has to do with the fact that it is a rimless cartridge and that it operates at a somewhat higher pressure than some of the larger, rimmed .45 cal express cartridges.

I hear not nearly as much about the .375 in double rifles. I assume that the same negatives exist for both cartridges. Am I correct?

In my quest for a 9.3 SxS, the number of nice .375s that I come across has me thinking possibly otherwise...

Thanks again for all!

Greg


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: Kynoch]
      #26694 - 23/02/05 03:29 PM

OK Greg, I'll shoot ya straight.

Rims, pressure, belts, you name it - you've obviously read it all here before, and by making this post - you're about to see it all again I'm sure.

I own two calibers of DRs 375H&H & 470 - so understand my beef isn't about one over the other.

The fact is that every major double rifle maker in the world offers a 375 H&H mag in their chamberings. All the Brits do, the Italians do, the Germans, the Ferlachers... you name it all offer the 375.

Now, ask yourself (before you read opinions of the nay-sayers) - if they shot off face so often and actions got stretched so regularly and the cartridges failed to extract or eject or they simply blew up b/c of all that pressure - do you think the greatest names in gun making would chamber for such a cartridge?

Would they hang their reputations (that many have literally spent 100s of years building) on a cartridge that would fall short of their guns?

OK - gates open...

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kynoch
.224 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 40
Loc: Iowa, United States
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: Kynoch]
      #26699 - 23/02/05 04:10 PM

Thanks New Guy.... Thats kinda what I'm thinking. I've seen some odd calibers in doubles (i.e., 6.5 Rem Mag), but the .375 is almost everywhere. - G

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: Kynoch]
      #26703 - 23/02/05 05:01 PM

I have a Chapuis in 9,3x74R. It has become my favorite hunting rifle under 40 cal. [I have 2 British big bore doubles]. I have taken several animals with this rifle including big pigs, black bear, and several African Plains game. It weighs 7 1/4 lbs without the scope, I have two scopes fitted and sighted in in QD mounts. I just cannot say enough nice things about this rifle.
I would still like to have a 375 H&H rifle to test the theory. A 375 double with scope in QD mounts [that works] would be an excellent double for the American hunter. [You just cannot find factroy 9,3 ammo many places].
Several AR members have 375 H&H doubles and none have mentioned any problems.
I know a fella that has several FINE British double rifles. He told me his favorite double rifle to hunt with was his Heym 458 Win Mag, with scope in which he shoots Barnes X bullets. [Thus breaking every double rifle rule].
I have seen him shoots this double and it shoots plenty good at 100 yards for sure.
I say go for it.
If you are looking at a 375 double take a look at the Chapuis.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: Kynoch]
      #26715 - 23/02/05 11:59 PM

I think New Guy has stated a fairly compelling case. The principal arguments against the .375 H&H Mag in a DR are (1) rimless extraction; and (2) higher pressures.

On the issue of rimless extraction I will concede that in theory the rimmed cartridge should give more positive extraction. In practice, I have had several DR's in rimless calibers, and I am yet to see one fail to extract. There are scads of DR's (and hinged single shot rifles) on the market right now with rimless extraction. A well-made rifle from a reputable maker is going to work.

Now I will say that if the shooter fails to do his part, the system may just fail. You better keep your rifle clean and serviced. Don't let your chambers rust. Don't let grit accumulate around the extractor/ejector mechanism. DUH! I don't know about you, but I keep all my DR's clean and in good service, whether rimless or rimmed. I didn't spend all that $$$ to watch it rust and corrode.

On the issue of pressure I will say this. Graeme Wright suggests a load of 77 grains IMR 4831 with the 300 grain bullet for the .375 Flanged. His pressure tests on this load at the Birmingham Proof House yielded 14.3 tpsi. Pressure of .375 Flanged factory ammo is 18.0 tpsi and .375 H&H Mag is 20 tpsi.

I am shooting his load in my .375 H&H Mag, so the pressure issue is out the window. The load regulates beautifully in my rifle.

I suppose if you are going to rely on factory ammo you are operatiing at 20 tpsi. I suspect that darn few serious DR shooters rely on factory ammo.

Whether 20 tpsi of factory ammo will wreck a modern DR I do not know. Intuitively I have to think New Guy's logic that the makers DO know the limits of their products is sound. Lots of reloaders want to boost their loats to better factory ammo. I suspect that's where you are going to get into trouble with a DR. I don't do it.

The advantages of the .375 H&H Mag are numerous. Loading components are so inexpensive that they virtually fall from the sky. No special orders. Brass is dirt cheap. I use the 300 grain Hornady round nose bullet which costs about $17 per box of 50 at the local gun store.

Don't get me wrong. I love the 9.3x74R. I have a nice one, and it is not the only one I have owned. But ammo and/or components are not found at the local gun store. The prevalent brass is Norma, which has proven to be crap for me and many others on this forum. I am getting ready to try RWS brass and hope it will do better.

So in closing, I will again say I have read the bitter opinions of the .375 H&H Mag expressed on this forum. I understand what the posters are saying, and I agree that all things being equal I want a rimmed, traditional DR cartridge. What these posters ignore is the reliability of rimless extraction and the ways a reloader can totally eliminate the pressure issue.

By the way, the purists among us gag at the thought of a scope on a DR. I like some with, and some without, depending on the rifle. A good .375 H&H might as well break this rule too!!!!

Here's a pic of one of my .375 H&H Mag DR's:



Best regards,
Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: Kynoch]
      #26716 - 24/02/05 12:30 AM

The 375 H&H operates at lower pressures than the 458 Winchester.

Insofar as shooting the action loose, it isn't pressure but backthrust you have to consider. Calculate the backthrust from a 12 gauge shot shell and you'll quit worrying about your rifle.

The double rifle is perfectly capable of handling just as much pressure as a bolt action rifle. The weak point is extraction. The DR just doesn't have the mechanical advantage in extraction that the bolt action has. In the early smokeless days they experienced difficult extraction and kept the pressure low for that reason. The difficult extraction eventually proved to be a matter of pitted chambers and weak brass. The problem went away with the advent of clean chambers and better brass.

That said, there is no reason to run high pressures in a double since you are free to make the case as long as you please. The bolt action is forced to high pressures because you are limited in the size of the case. The only real reason to chamber a DR in 375 H&H or 458 Winchester is the readily available ammo.




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: Kynoch]
      #26718 - 24/02/05 01:03 AM

I have a 470 Merkel and a 375H&H Heym.I prefer the Heym in almost all respects. I figure if H&H and Heym build them I'll shoot them. I have NEVER had an extraction or ejection problem( My Heym has a selector switch on forearm) with either gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: unspellable]
      #26719 - 24/02/05 01:06 AM

" only real reason to chamber a DR in 375 H&H or 458 Winchester is the readily available ammo."

I'll say this right up front. A great reason to get a DR in .375 H&H is mild recoil! I can shoot it all day.

The .375 H&H is a very versatile round and in a DR is darn near the perfect hunting rifle. Mine shoots like a dream for bullets weighing 235-350 grains. Each has regulated well bellow factory velocity, so pressure is not an issue.

I have over 500 rounds in my merkel without a single failure to extract. And it's still smack on face.

The chapuis is the best, but a merkel is also fine.



--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: unspellable]
      #26743 - 24/02/05 10:02 AM

In reply to:


The double rifle is perfectly capable of handling just as much pressure as a bolt action rifle.




Unspellable,
Wow! You are kidding right?

In reply to:

Insofar as shooting the action loose, it isn't pressure but backthrust you have to consider.




Backthrust IMO is a direct product of pressure.
For any given case head size if you increase pressure you also increase backthrust by a proportionate amount.

In reply to:

Calculate the backthrust from a 12 gauge shot shell and you'll quit worrying about your rifle




Hmmmm, I would be interested to see how you worked that one out. (using factory 375 H&H belted mag ammo max pressure)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Pressure in double [Re: 4seventy]
      #26816 - 25/02/05 10:56 AM

Yes, I am serious about double rifles being able to stand up to as much pressure as a bolt action. (Assuming the rifle is designed to work at such pressures which some are.)

First, aside from the matter of fastening them to the action, there is no inherent difference between the barrel on a bolt action and on a double. For the action itself, it's not a matter of pressure but of back thrust.

The few doubles I have seen after catestrophic blow ups all failed in the outside wall (away from the rib) of the barrel in the area from about the sholder of the cartridge to maybe eight inches in front of the cartrdige. The action remained undamaged in all cases.

The back thrust before corrections is equal to the pressure times the inside base area of the cartridge. How ever there are corrections to be made. The primary one being due to the case sticking to the chamber walls. For a shot gun with modern plastic hulls this correction is small. For a rifle however it's fairly large. This is the reason the inside of the test chamber is lightly oiled in the British method of measuring cartridge pressures.

A 12 gauge 3-1/2 inch cartridge will generate a maximum back thrust of about 6000 lb. A 375 H&H will generate a maximum uncorrected backthrust of around 7800 lb. This is for a SAAMI max load which unlike most SAAMI specs is a bit on the hot side. A realistic load for a double is likley to be less. Now throw in the correction for the case "stiction" and you will probably have less back thrust than the 12 gauge.

Now go look at a cheap 12 gauge double. One that got handed down from grandpa and is probably still tight. Compare it to you DR action. The latter will be built like a brick outhouse compared to the shotgun.

This is not to say you can safely run twice the normal pressure in your 400-450. That rifle was designed to work at normal 400-450 pressures.

A modern 375 H&H double must be able to stand up to the SAAMI max load. The SAAMI spec calls for a maximum average pressure of 62000 lb, 2000 lb more than a 30-06.







Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Pressure in double [Re: unspellable]
      #26821 - 25/02/05 11:44 AM

In reply to:

Yes, I am serious about double rifles being able to stand up to as much pressure as a bolt action. (Assuming the rifle is designed to work at such pressures which some are.)




I will agree that double rifle actions can be built to withstand pressures developed by cartridges like 375 belted mag however.......

Bolt actions can be built without difficulty to withstand pressures BEYOND what the brass cartridge case can take!
The weakest part regarding pressure is the case itself.

Now how many double rifle actions have been built strong enough to handle pressures that high, regardless of case diameters and resulting backthrust?
In reply to:

First, aside from the matter of fastening them to the action, there is no inherent difference between the barrel on a bolt action and on a double. For the action itself, it's not a matter of pressure but of back thrust.

The few doubles I have seen after catestrophic blow ups all failed in the outside wall (away from the rib) of the barrel in the area from about the sholder of the cartridge to maybe eight inches in front of the cartrdige. The action remained undamaged in all cases.






Really all this proves is that the barrels let go before the action and that the barrels were the weakest link.
It tells nothing about how strong the action is other than it was stronger than the barrels.
What caused the blowups, dangerously high pressure or flawed barrel steel?
How do you know the actions were undamaged.
How do you know that the actions were not sprung to a dangerous off the face condition as the blow up cartridge was fired and prior to the barrels letting go?

The bottom line IMO is that a quality bolt action will have plenty of strength in reserve when firing a cartridge like 375 belted mag but a double is going to be right at its limit with little in reserve regarding strength.




Edited by 4seventy (25/02/05 04:23 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Pressure in double [Re: 4seventy]
      #26854 - 26/02/05 12:19 AM

My point is that a double barrel action is not inherently weaker than a bolt action. Sure a lot of the old rifles were not built to take very high pressures but I can show you plenty of old bolt actions that will turn into hand grenades before you reach 50000 psi. Given proper design and good metal either type can be built strong enough to leave either the barrel or the brass as the weak link.

The whole notion of double barrel actions being weaker began around the time of the switch over from black powder to smokeless ran low pressures in an attempt to solve the extraction problem. It had nothing to do with the strength of the action.

Another point is that if we are designing a cartridge for a double barrel, there is no need to run high pressures. The requirement for high pressures comes about when the cartridge length is constrained by the length of the bolt action. Compare a 450 3-1/4 Nitro cartridge to a 458 Winchester. The 450 drives a given bullet weight only a tad faster than the 458 but the case is much longer allowing it to do so with lower pressures. The 458 is constrained in length by having to go through a standard length bolt action and is pushing the limits to get close to what the 450 does without breaking a sweat.

The principal stress on the action is the back thrust not the pressure. Consider the 600 Nitro. It probably cranks up more back thrust than a 460 Weatherby which is the king of the blasteroonies. (That latter term came about when my wife accompanied me to the range. Some guy was shooting a 460 Weatherby and she asked what made such a gawdawful noise and I told her it was a 460 Weatherby, the king of the blasteroonies.)

Where the double barrel action is weak is in the matter of mechanical advantage on extraction. The bolt action has a clear edge on this point.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Pressure in double [Re: unspellable]
      #26860 - 26/02/05 01:08 AM

According to my reloading manual, the case rapidly expands to fill the chamber, grips the walls of the chamber so tightly that the head will stretch if the head space is not correct giving that bright ring around the base. How can the case produce back trust if it is griping the chamber walls?


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Pressure in double [Re: unspellable]
      #26864 - 26/02/05 02:11 AM

I'm no engineer, and I hesitate to get into this debate, but I find it difficult to believe that a bolt action is not inherently stronger than a hinged double rifle action.

Whether you are talking about breech pressure or "backthrust" (which obviously doesn't exist in the absence of breech pressure), I think the focus would be on the mechanics that maintain the face of the breech securely tight against the end of the barrel, so that the whole mechanism stays closed.

On a bolt gun the major part to accomplish the task is the receiver ring. Typically the end of the barrel threads into the receiver ring - an extremely strong connection. The bolt closes from the rear by rotating its locking lugs into the locking lug recesses of the ring. All these parts are massive and operate in direct line with the bore to directly contain the "backthrust". There is no torque. It is a very strong mechanism.

On the other hand, the receiver of a hinged action rotates on the hinge to close the end of the barrels. The fasteners are on the lumps (Purdey) located forward of the end of the barrel and lateral to the line of the bore. There may or may not be a third fastener, of various designs. There is great debate whether the third fastener does much of anything. With the "backthrust", strong torque is applied to the action. This torque applies force to the bolts and lumps, and it has the advantage of leverage derived from the length of the bars. The weak point is in the apex of the "L" where the standing breech meets the bars. That's why some actions are "bolstered" or reinforced. As an aside, I will tell you that I know a man who has a drilling, the action of which cracked in this very location, on both sides.

Intuitively I can't imagine that this hinged mechanism is as strong as the bolt mechanism. In support of that statement I point out that the falling block action is very similar to the bolt action in that it contains the breech directly in line with the bore by way of lugs in the receiver directly behind the bore. The only mechanical difference (as to lockup principles) I see is that the block slides into place rather than rotate into place. I'm no expert on artillery, but the field pieces I have seen appeared to operate on the same principles as a falling block. Why not hinge those actions?

Obviously, action size is part of the strength equation. I have no doubt a hinged action can be made to contain the .50 BMG. I doubt you or I could lift it.

Extraction is not an issue of strength. Some bolt guns are designed for great extraction, i.e. Mauser 98; some are poorly designed for extraction, i.e. Remington 788, Weatherby Mk. V.

I'm sure I am sitting here with my foot in my mouth, and as I pull it out I apologize for my uninformed opinion.

Best to all,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Pressure in double [Re: CptCurl]
      #26868 - 26/02/05 04:21 AM

Maybe the question isn't which is stronger...

But rather: "Are both Strong Enough?"

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Pressure in double [Re: new_guy]
      #26869 - 26/02/05 06:37 AM

In reply to:

Maybe the question isn't which is stronger...

But rather: "Are both Strong Enough?"




No matter how new, the over all technology is still 18th century, and has some draw backs where pressures are concerened! That being said, I don't have as much worry about the pressures in a modern double rifle factory chambered for the 375H&H, or 458 Win Mag as long as factory, or equivilent ammo is used, as I do about them being a rimless cartridge. I suspect the "OFF FACE" condition is caused more often by hot handloads, than with factory ammo!

No matter how clean the rifle is, when you leave camp to hunt Buffalo, the dust in Africa is so fine it will invade a light bulb! The basic design of the tiny springs, usually a leaf spring, that opperates the Tiny pall that snapps over the rim of the cartridge on closeing, is prone to problem. It takes very little dust to take the extractor/ejector system for rimless cartridges out of service.

The other thing is, most who want a double rifle so chambered, are usually new to double rifles, and are often people who think they can hop their loads up like they do in their bolt rifles. This is the thinking of a novice, and doesn't work if one wants a double rifle to work properly. The hot load not only increases the pressures to an unsafe level for the rifle, but destroys the regulation as well. These people are usually people who want to use mono-lithic bullets, or X-bullet in ther doubles, another thing not reccomended.

People Like CaptCurl, are not novices, and are very well schooled in the proper use of double rifles. I venture to say, the 375 H&H double he posted the picture of, will be babied, and protected, till the exact moment, the rifle is to be used on a Cape Buffalo. Most hunters do not want to baby their rifles to assure they opperate as advertized. The pictured rifle would be one of the finest for a Leopard over bait,plains game, or North american hunting, and would most likely never give a problem with Captcurl owning, and hunting with it.

The best thing one can do if he wants a double rifle to work at the most inopertune moment, no matter the bush condition, or cleanliness of the rifle, is to buy one chambered for a rimmed NE, low pressure cartridge, with a non-auto safety, and double triggers, if dangerous game is the main target! If the 375 H&H is wanted, then the 375 H&H flanged is the way to go, eventhough ammo is harder to come by. For most a double rifle is a handloading affair anyway, I see no problem with the 375 FL!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Pressure in double [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #26880 - 26/02/05 08:43 AM

Let me say that what Mac has just said is true without question, and it is good advice. I think I can agree with every point he makes.

I stated in an earlier post on this thread that a sensible reloader can essentially duplicate .375 NE Flanged loads in the .375 H&H Belted Rimless Mag., thus overcoming the pressure issue. I went on to say that it is dangerous territory to try to boost loads in the effort to better factory ammo, and that’s probably where the pressure trouble starts. Mac has just seconded that opinion.

I also mentioned that I have had no problems with rimless extraction in the rifles I own, noting that one should keep the mechanism clean. Mac agrees with that also.

But I want to underscore the most important message Mac has stated. If you intend to hunt dangerous game – which might kick, stomp, bite, claw, or kill and eat you, you want the most reliable and unquestionably foolproof rifle available. I agree thoroughly with his assessment of what that double rifle should be.

Going back to the beginning of this thread, Kynoch stated he was looking for a 9.3 SxS but wondering whether to consider a .375 H&H. The debate centered on the issues of high chamber pressure and rimless extraction. Clearly from his query, Kynoch was not looking for a dangerous game rifle, as a 9.3 falls short of that category by good measure. (That statement ought to start some chirping! Do you remember the thread about whether to hunt buffalo with a 6.5x54?)

So my point is – it boils down to how you plan to use the rifle. I’ve not had the good fortune to go to Africa, so I don’t know beans about the dust there. If I ever get to go, I’ll take my Merkel .500 NE, which fully and adequately meets every one of Mac’s criteria for a dangerous game rifle.

I do know this – I have hunted elk under very adverse conditions in Colorado carrying my Jos. Winkler double rifle in .300 Win. Mag. (I posted a pic of that rifle under this thread.) Never did I have trouble with the rimless extraction. I did take care to clean the rifle each night and dry it out thoroughly. But again, that bull elk wasn’t going to stomp my guts out if the rifle failed. I would take that Winkler to Africa for plains game unquestionably.

And I will reiterate – I have three DR’s with rimless extraction. I have never had an extraction or ejection failure, and I have shot them a lot. But I’ve never carried them in the dust of Africa, and I probably won’t.

The overall point I am trying to make is not to shun a .375 Mag. simply because it is rimless and in that caliber. You might be passing up a delightful DR for the wrong reasons.

If you are going where they might stomp your guts out, listen to Mac.

Curl


--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
unspellable
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Pressure in double [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #27102 - 02/03/05 09:30 AM

<< bonanza
According to my reloading manual, the case rapidly expands to fill the chamber, grips the walls of the chamber so tightly that the head will stretch if the head space is not correct giving that bright ring around the base. How can the case produce back trust if it is griping the chamber walls? >>

Bonanza, you have provided the answer to your own question. The case stretches. For a rifle, the first correction in calculating the back thrust is to subtract the force required to stretch the case.


<< new guy
Maybe the question isn't which is stronger...
But rather: "Are both Strong Enough?" >>

Yes, this is really the question that matters. The answer is an unequivocal yes. Provided the action, whichever type it may be has been designed for the pressure at hand. You can make a bolt action out of pot metal, but I wouldn’t want to use it for anything beyond a cap gun.




DUGABOY1

The technology involved in the drop barrel or break open action is not 18th century technology, but rather 19th Century technology. And the bolt action is also 19th century technology. In both cases improvements have been made since then using 20th century technology, most notably the improvements in metallurgy.

Judging the strength of an action type can be deceptive. A Winchester Model 94 looks strong, it has a massive breech block locked with two good sized sliding bars. But it is weak because the sliding bars are at the rear of the breech block. On firing the breech block compresses while the frame stretches. With too much pressure this allows the cartridge case to elongate too much and the brass fails. Note the brass fails first, not the action itself. We end up with a SAAMI maximum average pressure of only 42000 psi. The Winchester Model 95 is much stronger, not so much because it’s bigger as because the locking bars have been moved forward eliminating much of the compression and stretch.

The weak link in today’s technology is the brass cartridge case. The case restricts the maximum average working pressure to 65000 psi. This allows room for a proof load with 30% more pressure than the working load. When pressures go beyond this region the brass begins to flow.

The action is stressed by the back thrust. Using modern metallurgy either action can be built for a 65000 psi working pressure. (See new guy’s comment.) If you had a hypothetical cartridge case that would withstand a gadzillion psi, then I suppose as you increased both the action strength and the pressure you would reach a point where one or the other action types would prove inherently stronger. But that’s a moot point because we only have to handle 65000 psi as an average working pressure.

The third fastener, debates not withstanding, does do something to stiffen the action. The debate should not be, “Do they do something?” but, “Are they really necessary?” It’s a simple experiment to prove they do something, you can find a good example of such an experiment in Greener’s book, although he is guilty of slanting it to make his third fastener look better than every body else’s. But then Greener was never noted for being shy about blowing his own horn.

Now as DUGABOY1 indicates, there is nothing to gain by trying to hot rod a double rifle load. The older rifles were designed to work at the pressures they worked at, regardless of the action characteristics. There are some of the old bolt actions you don’t hot rod either if you have any sense. In addition, old rifle or new, a hot rod load is likely to affect the regulation and can also be sticky on extraction, not good in a mixup. On the other hand, I wouldn’t expect to download the 375 H&H to match the 375 Flanged, again you might have an adverse affect on the regulation. No harm in trying though, since we would be lowering the pressure instead of raising it.

The double rifle cartridges ran low pressure for two reasons, reliable extraction, and because there is simply no need for high pressures in a cartridge designed for a double or single shot rifle.

So the bolt action has an advantage in extraction, but not in pressure. It’s easier to design for gas handling in the event of a failed case or primer in the bolt action. The “advantage” of from two to four cartridges in the magazine is largely an illusion. When things get hairy there will not be time for a third shot, any “third” shot will come from your backup man.

As for the extractor, yes rimless type extractors work. But I have to go with DUGABOY1 on this, the simpler the better when reliability counts. And I also go along with him on the non-auto safety and double triggers.

All this said, the question of a rifle or gun being “off the face” is a good question and deserves some real answers. There are different types of drop barrel actions, some rely on the hinge pin taking almost the entire back thrust. On the other hand the Purdey type action has one or both of two the two lumps taking back thrust. If so fitted there is also a third fastener. All this assumes proper fitting, which is one of the factors that make our pets cost so much more than a typical bolt action rifle. Given sufficient wear, any rifle or gun will go off the face, but I suspect the majority of cases are due to either a cheap gun or abuse of one form or another. How about slamming the action shut?






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Pressure in double [Re: unspellable]
      #55724 - 25/04/06 11:44 PM

Wow!

Unspellable, thank you for the most insightful composition on how pressure relates to stress/strain on various action types.

BTW, I have always been able to regulate my doubles at lower pressure than factory ammo.


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Pressure in double [Re: bonanza]
      #55734 - 26/04/06 01:11 AM

I'll chip in my $.02 since I have both feet in both camps.

The ideal for a DR is a low pressure rimmed cartridge. There is simply less to go wrong and less reason for it to go wrong.

Don't pass up an opportunity to own a nice rifle that isn't ideal simply because it is chambered for a higher pressure rimless cartridge though, even if it is going to see use against DG.

I bought my rifle which is in 458wm for a song because it was heavily discounted because of the chambering. I vetted it thouroughly before using it for DG. JJ inspected and shot it and sugested I try to make it fail. I fired more than 200 rounds without cleaning the chambers or the ejectors in an effort to get the rifle to fail. It worked flawlessly every time. I have about 500 rounds through it and performance has been flawless.

The dust in Africa is fine and plentiful, actually endless. It is something to be aware of and to combat no matter what type of rifle you are using. In fact, dust was more of an issue with my bolt rifle than my double. I found that it is an issue when your rifles are in the back of the truck, traveling. It is easy to combat by using a good softcase and also a sleeve. When you are on tracks the dust isn't much, if any, of an issue. A good dust cleaning at the end of the day for whatever rifles you have had in the truck, bolt or double, is an easy and wise dose of prevention.

A good quality rifle in a higher pressure belted rimless cartridge just isn't the accident waiting to happen that some beleive it is. This may not apply to lesser quality rifles and I would thouroughly vett any rifle going on an extensive hunt, particularly a DG hunt and particularly rimless cartridge DR's. Then I would confidently takle any game on earth.

JPK


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Pressure in double [Re: JPK]
      #55748 - 26/04/06 03:13 AM

Excuse me,
but what pressures are encountered with the 375 H&H rimless in a Double? 62,000 psi? What are the max velocities attained by ?270 gr bullets with proper regulation?


Side note re: dust and rifles. Sounds weird but In very dusty environments I actually tape saran wrap over the crown end of the barrel. Sounds comical but it doesn't affect the bullet trajectory and this keeps foreign debris out of the barrel.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (26/04/06 03:19 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: .375 H&H in a double rifle. [Re: new_guy]
      #55756 - 26/04/06 03:54 AM

In reply to:

"Now, ask yourself (before you read opinions of the nay-sayers) - if they shot off face so often and actions got stretched so regularly and the cartridges failed to extract or eject or simply blew up b/c of all that pressure - do you think the greatest names of gunmaking would chamber for such a cartridge?"




First off, I'm not picking on you Chris, it's just that I hear this statement from people all the time and am responding to it in a general sense. My comments are not directed specifically at you.

This logic is "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" and, as usual for it's kind, is indicative of cognitive dissonance. The answer to your question is - "Of course they would!" Modern double rifle manufacturers do many stupid things, and the fact that they do so has nothing to do with technical propriety. Most of them will also fit beavertail fore-ends to large bore double rifles - some of them only fit beavertails. Do they know better? Sure, but what has that got to do with it? They build them due to market demand, not because it's a good idea.

Today's DR manufacturers are up against it. The market is small and competition high, and that market isn't as sophisticated as it once was. Like anything else, what the makers build is dictated by demand and that demand is created by many folks who don't know any better because they don't know any different. The makers build what they can sell. I know plenty of guys who wouldn't dream of buying a double in .375 Flanged Magnum because they can't buy ammo at Wally World like they can Belted Rimless. They'd never dream of tolerating the inconvenience of hard to find ammo. They have no idea how inconvenient it will be when the extractor pawls wear and begin to fail. Same guys want beavertails to protect their fingers from the barrels when they get hot. When the overloaded solder joint on the fore-end loop fails and the loop shears off, putting the gun out of action completely (cocking rods don't work, it doesn't go "BANG" anymore), they condemn the maker instead of themselves for having been uninformed enough to have ordered it that way to begin with.

Based on my own observations over the years, there's no doubt in my mind that doubles chambered for high-pressure rimless shells do come off-face faster than those chambered for shells designed for doubles. I've sure seen a bunch that were loose. The loosest double rifle I've ever examined was a relatively new Chapuis .375 H&H. I haven't fired many rimless double rifles as I avoid them like the plague, but I uniformly had extraction/ejection failures with those that I did shoot. I know of sheared fore-end loops on recent beavertailed DRs from several makers. All of these problems are easily avoided by avoiding such chamberings and designs. Geehawed mass produced bolt rifles are one thing, but setting up a double rifle for premature failure is especially senseless.

As to the discussion of pressure, it's worthwhile to note that most of these DR cartridges were created and standardized by the British. The British approach to rifle cartridges was, to my knowledge, unique in that they ignored chamber pressure and measured only bolt thrust. Their rifle cartridges were developed and standardized in base crusher guns, which measured bolt thrust by the base copper units of pressure (the copper cylinder was crushed between the case head and breech face) yardstick. The cartridge being tested was greased before firing to eliminate the ability of the expanding case to grip the chamber wall.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
vigillinus
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: Pressure in double [Re: JPK]
      #55913 - 27/04/06 06:21 PM

Over the years I have owned three doubles for rimless cartridges, all Westley Richards, boxlocks in .30'06 and .318, and a droplock in .375 H&H. The first two worked OK but I did not shoot them much. The .375 gave extraction and ejection trouble and it was in new condition. That soured me on rimless cartridges in doubles. Why look for trouble?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 467 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4497

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved