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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
20 ga regulation success
      #266083 - 08/06/15 09:57 AM

Well that worked.

This is a 20ga rebarrel of a Belgian 16ga double. Pix of that to follow.



For whatever reason, the photo server kept loading it sideways and I couldn't edit it. Tilt your head to the left and it looks correct.

The dropped shot was on me because the gun had no sights. two right and two left at 25 yards

That was only my second adjustment on regulation so I was pretty happy. Not sure why it seems to be grouping to the left though. Did that before as well.

Tom

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #266088 - 08/06/15 11:25 AM

In NY everything tends to go left of center.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #266089 - 08/06/15 11:40 AM

Hey Iowa,
Yeah....left...
I live in Putnam county the first red county (yes there are those) north of NYC
Good place to live if you're a hunter or shooter.

I decided to build this thing to take advantage of substantial hunting opportunities locally, but rifles are verboten. Lets hear it for going in style.
BTW, the slugs are 3" Brenekee. They stay supersonic out to 100.

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #266093 - 08/06/15 02:20 PM

Congratulations Tom.

How is the stock head to action fit?

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #266112 - 08/06/15 09:45 PM

Tom,
First of all, congratulations on getting it to shoot that tight. If you expect to shoot out to 100 yards I suggest that you are going to need good sights on the gun, you can adjust the POI using the sights. As to why it is grouping left, it could be as simple as how the barrels are fitted together or maybe you are putting too much of your trigger finger into the trigger guard and pulling the trigger off a bit. If your gun shoots mostly to the left, chances are you are using too much of your trigger finger, to the right, it is the opposite.
When I shoot for regulation I always shoot over a good solid bench because I want to know what the gun is doing, and not how well I can shoot it offhand. Next I concentrate on pulling the trigger with the pad on my trigger finger and pulling it straight back towards the junction of my hand and thumb, this makes sure you are not pulling it off one way or the other, and it is easy to do and hard to self analyze the condition causing the problem.
Another thing that I would mention to you is that those slug loads are really hot and may be effecting the way the gun shoots. I don't know what kind of country you hunt in but if it is woods hunting, you will hardly ever get a 100 yard shot in the timber. I strive for 50 yard slug gun accuracy and call it good.
Lastly, if you don't have a good rifle type rib on the gun to accept solid iron sights, I can help you out with that. You need good sights on it to make it repeatable. You have already got it shooting tighter groups than many guns that had been made up recently, keep at it and you will get what you want. You also need to realize that your barrels are crossing at 25 yards, that means at 50 yards the shots will be apart about the same distance as the barrels on you gun at the muzzles. This is still very good regulation of a slug gun. Bob

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #266145 - 09/06/15 09:32 AM

Couldn't find the old posts but this has been a work in progress for a long time. Right now all of the slugs will go into that group. The low shot from the right barrel is from a rifled tube that I had cut by Les Bauska. When I was testing it on a scoped bolt gun it would group into 2" at 100.
It really is a 100yd gun at best by power, so the left tube is smooth and I threaded it for choke tubes. Thought I would have a combo gun that would be good for deer as well as reasonable with shot. The 70 twist in the right barrel should be ok with shot loads.
I am making a rib for it that looks more shotgun than rifle. Set up with a bead front (or flip) and a folding leaf. At this point I am just trying to keep the weight down. If I can beat 7# I'll be happy.
Probably installing scope mounts flush with the rib.

I may have solved the left issue. The cheekpiece is a bit too fat so taking that down should solve the problem.
The right barrel is larger diameter than the left. I will file the rib in so that it is pointed in the right direction and hopefully that will solve the patterning problem.

For regulation I went to the Brownell's book and the sight adjustment page. The barrels originally crossed by 7"
The distance between the center spacer and muzzle was around 11".
I treated that as my sight distance and had to drive the muzzles apart by .120 to adjust for 28" at 100 yds.
It worked, but I will probably add another .010or a bit less for a 50yd regulation.

Tom

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #266183 - 09/06/15 11:50 PM

Tom,
It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what you want to achieve and have figured out how to get there. The book you referred to is probably the one by W. Ellis Brown, he has a table in it for reference that gets us close to where we need to be, from there on you just have to tweek it a bit more. The one in 70 twist rate on the fully rifled barrel should not effect the shot spread much, it will be like having spreader loads in it, good for Grouse or Quail.
I have read some place, a test study where they compared the slug shooting accuracy or several slug barrels, some fully rifled and some that just had screw in rifled choke tubes. The winner of the test was a fully rifled tube, but the screw in chokes came in very close right behind it. It would not have made much difference at deer shooting distances. The main point of the test was accuracy, but they also mentioned and stressed that matching the ammo to a particular barrel was the only way to get best accuracy out of any certain barrel.
If you can find, or develop, a load that does equally well in both your barrels, then you have just about got it figured out. I would concentrate on accuracy alone and forget about speed, whatever load you finish with will have enough energy to do what you want. Bob

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #266208 - 10/06/15 10:22 AM

Tom,

You can put temporary sights on with black Loctite. I think it is Locktite #380, but may be another formula, I just don't remember exactly. I did this on my 50 Alaskan. When I was done, I just knocked the sight off with a tap from a hammer. Good project, good luck.

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: CommandCar]
      #266232 - 10/06/15 08:05 PM

When I had the original barrel cut the plan was to match it to factory cases for cast slug shooting (ball/conical). The plastic case ID was something around .625 and I opted for .005 rifling. When I tested the Brenekees, 50 yard accuracy was literally the size of a slug hole. Unfortunately the 2.75 slugs went subsonic and at 100 the group was upwards of 7".
Moved over to the 3" and things improved. The only more accurate slug was the Lightfield, but I have a big supply of the former so that is the one I regulated to.
I do have Ellis Brown's book and it is very helpful. The chart is from the Brownells catalog. It helps with sight heights and is here https://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=13093/GunTechdetail/Sight_Correction_Calculator

It did work just like adjusting sights; at least this time.

CC, really like the black locktite fix. I was considering duct tape and posting pix...

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #266639 - 18/06/15 10:22 AM

More of the sideways head thing...




Realized that an off center choke tube wasn't the problem. Ended up with a little runout but not enough to make a difference.
Took the barrels down, reamed the left monoblock a little wider and pressed the barrel to the right as I re-soldered it. Didn't re-ream, but did put side pressure on the other as well when I sweated it in.
Placed in the spacers that I used the first time and from the original group looks like it worked. Will probably add a bit more space between the barrels for regulation further out.

Only fired two shots as there is a lot more work left and I should probably get the rib on, hook, etc.

Tom

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #267668 - 10/07/15 03:11 AM


I wasn't completely happy with the way the gun had worked out so after the last range trip, I stripped the entire thing down including removing the barrels from the monoblock.

Re tinned all of the parts(thank you for the advice)and soldered it back together.

Below is a 2 rt 2 left at 25 yards. Still without sights. Just made sure that the measurements from after matched those before I took apart.

Hopefully the last of the sideways head pix.



After I get the sights on it I may do a little more regulation.

An added bonus was that the shot barrel(left) patterns perfectly at 25 yards. Haven't fired shot through the rifled side yet. The shot regulating surprised me.

Tom

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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Iowa_303s
.400 member


Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #267699 - 10/07/15 10:54 AM

Congradulation Tom,
Looks like things are going well.
The deer had best beware!

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #267713 - 10/07/15 03:08 PM

Yeah- looking pretty good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: DarylS]
      #268319 - 22/07/15 05:16 AM

After the scope ring thing I finally got back to the range to work things out.

Two outings yesterday. First was over to the Beretta sporting clays course in Dover plains, NY where I shot a round with it.
At nearly 7.5# its heavy for a 20ga but it patterns correctly and balances about 3/4" in front of the hinge. There were no problems on any shots within 25yds and I was able to connect on some farther shots but I have a feeling that the main limitation was the shooter.
All stages included using the rifled barrel as my first shot. I dusted enough clays with that one to say that the patterns weren't getting blown either.

A trip to the range yesterday afternoon to check regulation wasn't an unqualified disaster, but the amount of leading that had built up in both barrels was an issue (8" 50 yard groups) so after a thorough cleaning it went out again this morning.



That is 3 right and 2 left at 50 yards.
3.75" spread so it looks like I'll have to do some regulation this afternoon and try it again tomorrow.
After that I can shoot a round of trap to see how that works out.

Tom

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #268361 - 23/07/15 01:50 AM

A little more or less speed to get the regulation closer, Tom? maybe just a wad change?
Very nice groups from each barrel- better than nice!! Well done.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: DarylS]
      #268378 - 23/07/15 07:09 AM

Currently using factory 3" Brenekee so changing components doesn't look good, although I have a few boxes of Hastings 3" slugs . Those look interesting and they can be reloaded. I just have to see how well they shoot out of the smoothbore side

Bob was right about the scope mounts and the small stops sheared off on the front of the forward mount. Actually, it was my fault as I pushed the scope on too hard one too many times while fitting it.
Either way, cutting a new forward mount now and hopefully another range trip tomorrow.

Did try to shoot trap today but the machine took a dump so that was a no go.

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #268391 - 23/07/15 08:32 AM

I found Winchester 3", 1 ounce at 1,770fps to be quite accurate in my rifled 24" bl. Mossberg, M835. When I say quite accurate, I am referring to a 2" hole for 5 shots offhand at 30yards, open factory sights, U notch and front bead sight. The 'fosters' can be quite accurate out of some guns, smooth and rifled. There is actually a plethora of slug loads nowadays.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: DarylS]
      #268396 - 23/07/15 11:28 AM

Problem is that this is a 20 ga.
The original project idea was to end up with a gun similar to a paradox so very much like a game gun but capable of near rifle accuracy. Love that Faunetta from W.R..
If I was going to do this it had to be with a full bore slug as opposed to sub caliber sabot round and that effectively left me with limited options.
I didn't want to spend $12 a box on Lightfields although they seem to be great slugs. Buckhammer, Hastings or Rottweil were equally expensive as well. I thought of going about the round ball route and still might have if things don't work out as my .58 is as much gun as I will ever need to kill deer as far as I can hit them. I just happened to run across a pile of Brenekee 3" for the right price and that is how I ended up where I am.
In the future I can always re-regulate the gun if I have to.

As an aside, I am seriously thinking of picking up a pile of those Hastings wads(if they shoot through the smoothbore), purchase the mold as well and turn the slugs in the lathe into Faunetta style rounds with a plastic as opposed to a metal tip.

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Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga regulation success [Re: Tom_H]
      #268397 - 23/07/15 11:33 AM

SRY Tom - forgot it was a 20.

Armed with a roll crimp die, you're home set on loading your own. A 3" will hold a LOT more powder than needed & still should allow a folded crimp if that is your desire, but - 140gr.2F should net you around or over 1,800fps with a round ball weighing 320gr. in WW, depending on the diameter, for 2,303fpe.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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