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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Joining a SXS
      #262820 - 27/03/15 06:16 AM

I am planning a .62 cal SXS rifle (muzzle-loader) and am looking for hi-temp solder to join the barrels. There are hi-temp solders listed from 650 to 1300 deg. Just how "High" do I need to go????

--------------------
Longknife

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: Longknife]
      #262821 - 27/03/15 08:29 AM

A silver bearing solder needing 650degrees is not really a high temp silver solder. I cast bullets at 850 degrees - still not high heat as the high temp silver solders/brazing temps go.

On the other hand, bright red heats are considered high temp silver solders, which is in the 1,200F to 1,300F range.

On a good silver solder, a 1 mil bond can have up to 75,000PSi shear strength - much more than needed for joining two barrels.

Soft, ie: low temp solders are all that is needed, I am sure. Contacting Colin Stolz of this site should give you some answers.

None of the original ML SXS's or CF rifles both up to 4 bore, were joined with high temp solders.

Good luck on the project. I've wanted a 14 bore SXS for decades, since 1980's, reading Forsyth's book, which is why I had a "cheap single" (his words) made up for my use.

A number of guys here have built and regulated doubles.

I'm sure someone will suggest a certain book for you. SRY I cannot remember the author's name. It will probably come to me at 3AM.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: DarylS]
      #262823 - 27/03/15 08:41 AM

That would be, "Building Double Rifles On Shotgun Actions" by Ellis Brown

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: AkMike]
      #262825 - 27/03/15 08:57 AM

All yes - tks Mike - now I don't have to snap awake at ZERO-DARK30 and shout out Ellis Brown!

That book should tell you all about joining & aligning, wedging of barrels, I am sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: DarylS]
      #262827 - 27/03/15 09:26 AM

What Daryl said.
Those references will point this out I'm sure, but a silver/tin alloy (like Force 44 from Brownells: 5% silver + 95% tin from memory) will be stronger/better than tin or lead/tin solder. The added advantage is you can choose to hot caustic blue the barrel group if you choose; not recommended if the solder contains any lead.

Temperature of the melting point is not really relevant IMHO.

I don't think anyone would ever recommend silver-solder or brazing temperatures for laying ribs on a double.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: Longknife]
      #262830 - 27/03/15 10:52 AM

I use Hi-Force 44 from Brownells for joining barrels to the monoblock and also to solder the spacers and the ribs. It makes the whole barrel assembly much stronger. It is 4% silver and 96% Tin and it melts at 475 degrees F. It will give you 28,000 pounds of tensile strength when properly fitted and applied. That's all that is needed except for clean joint sweating. Good Luck.
Bob

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CowboyCS
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Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #262833 - 27/03/15 03:06 PM

Here's the link to a documented build I did on SxS 10 Bore rifles.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....&PHPSESSID=
If you have the time to go through the videos and maybe browse through my other videos in my blog or on my youtube channel it will hoepfully answer most of your questions on building a SXS .62 muzzleloader.

If I can help in any way please feel free to pm, email or call me. The link in my signature will take you to my website and you can find all my contact info there.

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 263
Loc: Illinois
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: CowboyCS]
      #262864 - 28/03/15 10:55 AM

Colin, I was hoping to hear from you. Thanks for the link to your videos. I WILL have lots of questions....When you joined the barrels with that high temp silver solder at what temp was that solder melting at? When you solderd the ribs with a lower temp solder at what temp did it flow?.... Just trying to get it all lined out to solder next week....oh one more, did you solder with the bores parallel?...THANKS, Ed

--------------------
Longknife

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: Longknife]
      #262867 - 28/03/15 11:40 AM

Longknife,
What has been said above about HiForce solder from Brownell's is correct. I have used it for years with great success, including the building of eight side-by-side double rifles. What needs to be added is that the best solder in the world is useless without proper technique and proper soldering fluxes. Brownell's sell the correct solder to pre-tin all of your parts. This is an acidic flux, which is necessary to get the proper "wetting" of steel alloys. You then need to remove all traces of that acid flux by washing the parts well with hot water and detergent. If you don't do this you will encounter serious rusting problems down the road. Final assembly of the pre-tinned parts should be done using a liquid rosin flux. You can find this at most Radio Shack stores. The old-timers used powdered rosin. It's difficult to find and the liquid is much easier to use. Just paint it on the surfaces to be joined, let it dry for half an hour, clamp the parts together, and apply heat and more Hi-Force. I buy cheap artists' brushes at the local hardware store to apply the rosin flux with.

PS: Don't be alarmed if the rosin flux catches fire when hit with the torch. That is perfectly normal. Also, it leaves a wicked sticky mess on hands, brushes, and the final assembly. Gasoline dissolves the residue easily, a job best done outdoors for safety's sake!

PPS: One caveat!! Despite the fact that Brownell's advertise that parts joined with Hi-Force solder may be hot-blued, I have personally witnessed such joints damaged when left too long in a hot bath. Take care in that regard!

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #262893 - 29/03/15 03:12 AM

Should be rust blued, anyway.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Chavez
.224 member


Reged: 31/10/13
Posts: 25
Loc: Kentucky
Re: Joining a SXS [Re: DarylS]
      #263366 - 10/04/15 07:34 AM

You can get the liquid rosin from amason also , if you can't find it at raido shack.

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