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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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BwanaBob
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Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia
Lee Speed .405 Winchester
      #260184 - 09/02/15 09:00 PM

Gents,

I am researching the .405 Winchester cartridge and I keep seeing mention that it was a chambering in the Lee Speed but I have never seen any actual hard evidence of such.

Can anyone provide more information, copies of advertisements, brochures, photos or can steer me towards a source of real data for this calibre in the Lee Speeds?

thank you in advance!

Indeed, any other info on the .405 would be welcome, too.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: BwanaBob]
      #260185 - 09/02/15 09:08 PM

I've always wanted a Krag built into a 405 Winnie..

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.


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BwanaBob
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Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia
Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: Ash]
      #260188 - 09/02/15 10:11 PM

I've got one of the Miroku manufactured Winchester 1895 take-downs in .405 and I just love it! But a Lee Speed, as a companion to the Winchester, would be lovely, too!

And so I am now trying to find out as much as the .405 cartridges as possible because, frankly, there has been a lot of rumour/negativity repeated about the cartridge, over the years, and the more I dig into the cartridge's past, the more interesting I am finding it!

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

Edited by BwanaBob (09/02/15 10:45 PM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: BwanaBob]
      #260194 - 10/02/15 01:18 AM

did not find a lee speed in 405
seems this was only made in 303, 375 flanged NE and 8x50R Mannlicher/.315 india

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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BwanaBob
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Reged: 03/07/03
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: lancaster]
      #260228 - 10/02/15 11:04 AM

Apparently the Remington Lee was available in .405 Winchester. 'Rifles of the World' by John Walter, has an entry on page 245, stating that the Remington Lee rifle was made available in .405 Winchester in 1904.

Mind you, John Walter in 'Rifles of the World', states that the Lee Speed was chambered in, and I quote, "7x57, .303, 8x51R, 32-40 Winchester or .375 Flanged Nitro Express (9.5x57)" and, quite obviously, this list has some notable problems which bring doubt on the veracity of some of the information in this book.

Could it be that somewhere, someone has confused the Remington Lee with the Lee Speed and that is where the idea that the Lee Speed was available in .405 came from?

Mike Venturino, in his book "Shooting Lever Action Rifles of the Old West", claims that the Remington Keene rifle was chambered for the .405. However, I think that this is another case of mistaken identity because I can find no other reference to this rifle and calibre and the Remington Keene was only made between 1880 and 1886, for a total of 5,000 firearms, and the .405 didn't come into existence till 1904! The Remington Keene was available in .40/60 and was advertised as available in .40 and .45 calibres, so maybe the reference to .40 calibre caused this mistake. Alternatively, perhaps Mike Venturino simply meant to say Remington Lee, and not Remington Keene, and that this error somehow managed to pass through the proof readying for this book.

I mention this because it shows how easy it is to confuse some of these old rifles, particularly as the amount of hard written data, that has survived for some of them, is very, very small.

Of course, there is always the chance that there are one or two examples of these old rifles, in odd calibres like the .405, but that they are the result of custom or backyard gunsmithing, not factory chamberings, and this has created the confusion I am trying to resolve. For example, I have seen an "Enfield" (presumably a P14) for sale in .405 on the internet and I have heard (and I stress 'heard') of other rifles, such as the Krag, in this calibre, too.

But I am looking for evidence of factory chamberings.

Edited by BwanaBob (10/02/15 01:38 PM)


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Norman4
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Reged: 16/01/15
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Loc: Vermont,USA
Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: BwanaBob]
      #260230 - 10/02/15 11:45 AM

I have seen a Remington Lee sporting rifle in .405 Win. It had a very narrow stock and must have been a bear to shoot. It also had a pretty good crack in the grip. No surprise there really. It's an interesting idea. Would have been quite a moose gun in a Lee Speed rifle. Norman4

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VonGruff
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: Norman4]
      #260235 - 10/02/15 03:43 PM

I am at present putting a Lee Speed "type" rifle together on a Mk I action. I have just taken delivery of a 405 Winchester barrel and intend to shorten the chamber a little so I can load with a 320gn cast bullet that should run to 22-2300fps. That will take care of any moose that cares to wander along my way

Still have a way to go but it is getting there


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Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (10/02/15 03:45 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: VonGruff]
      #260236 - 10/02/15 04:13 PM

I'm sure it might even handle a stag? - Or are you planing a trip to moose country?

Good idea - I have a #4 that needs a new barrel. The one it has, was re-chambered to a .303" on a .350 Rem mag case - 174's at 2,960fps, 1 1/2" at 100 Meters with battle sights and now I'm bored with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: DarylS]
      #260240 - 10/02/15 05:44 PM

here is a remington in 405









"Exceptional and Rare Documented Remington Lee Heavy Weight Bolt Action Deluxe Sporting Rifle

Remington Arms shipped 1,446 factory sporters from 1899 to 1909 (factory Code M-96) with serial numbers beginning at 75001 to 76348 and many of the serial numbers above 75650 were preceded by the letter "F", which is the case with this rifle. Some collectors refer to this model as the "Deluxe Model". This rifle was formally in the Karl Moldenhauer collection and is pictured and described (number 364) in the book Richard A. Bourne Co., Inc Presents The Karl F. Moldenhauer Collection of Remington Arms at Unreserved Public Auction". This rifle was also later in the Frank Sellers collection. It is unknown how many of these heavy bull barrel sporting rifles were made, but the number is very small. The 405 Win caliber was the last to be introduced in 1904. The top of the left receiver wall is marked with the later address "REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION, NEW YORK, U.S.A." followed by the serial number and the left side is marked "PATENTED AUG. 26TH 1884, SEP'T 9TH 1884, MARCH 17TH 1885, JAN. 18TH 1887." There is a sling swivel mounted on the bottom of the barrel and it is equipped with the original windage adjustable front sight and two folding leaf rear sight. There is a bolt mounted short range peep sight. Mounted with a one-piece walnut stock with an ebony insert in the Schnabel forend, multi-point checkered round knob pistol grip, "RA Co" monogrammed hard rubber buttplate and sling swivel.

Manufucture: Remington Arms Inc
Model: 1899-Rifle
BBL: 24 inch round
Stock: walnut
Guage: 405 WCF
Finish: blue
Grips:
Serial Number: F75813

Excellent. The rifle retains 95% plus bright original blue finish with some light wear on the bolt handle and a couple of areas of minor flaking and spotting near the rear sight. There is some thinning on the trigger guard. The stock is also excellent with 98% original varnish remaining, and showing a few small long dents in the left front of the comb, a series of tiny pressure dents on the left side behind the grasping groove and a few minor dents and dings. The checkering is crisp. The markings are sharp. The action is excellent. An exceptional example of a rare Heavy Barrel Sporting Model Remington Lee Rifle."

http://www.icollector.com/Exceptional-an...Rifle_i17061711

this and the french Rival in 405 are probably the only bolt actions for the big winchester cartridge










--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (10/02/15 05:51 PM)


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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: lancaster]
      #260247 - 10/02/15 07:21 PM

Adventurous gunsmiths may have attempted all sorts of things. VonGruff's project looks interesting! (Please keep us posted).

But you are correct that the Lee-Speed was never chambered in .405 from (any) factory.

I am a HUGE admirer of John Walter, but in this particular instance ("Rifles of the World") he is incorrect about Lee-Speed chamberings. He either misread the catalogue (understandable in this case; the info is presented in a way that is easily misconstrued), or a few numbers got jumbled in the final edit. It happens.

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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Ash
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Loc: Australia
Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: jc5]
      #260256 - 10/02/15 10:17 PM

He lists a few calibers in the Certus rifles too that i've never seen so far.. like 303, 6.5x53r. That would be a whole new action size to discover.. I dont think they exist.


Lee was a good inventor.

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.


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BwanaBob
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Reged: 03/07/03
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: lancaster]
      #260260 - 10/02/15 11:44 PM

Lancaster,

Wow, thanks for the info on the Remington Lee .405 and the Rival - I had never heard of the Rival until I read your post. Where did you find the advertisement for the Rival?

That Remington Lee in .405 looks like a lovely rifle and is in fantastic condition, too - I would love to have the chance to handle that rifle.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: BwanaBob]
      #260261 - 10/02/15 11:52 PM

Bwana - http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=250061&an=0&page=0#Post250061

Enjoy.

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.


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lancaster
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: Ash]
      #260267 - 11/02/15 03:25 AM

notice that "Rival" was more a trademark of manyfrance! when the daudetau actions on stock came to an end they build first class 10,75x68 mauser rifles under this name.
the remington lee sporting rifle is maybe hard to find outside of the united states.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Old_rifle_nut
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Reged: 13/12/06
Posts: 100
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Re: Lee Speed .405 Winchester [Re: lancaster]
      #260504 - 15/02/15 04:23 AM

Re: "Lee Speed was chambered in, and I quote, "7x57, .303, 8x51R, 32-40 Winchester or .375 Flanged Nitro Express (2 1/2").

Why is this incorrect? Looking at a number of the B.S.A.Co. catalogues, I find the above to be correct, as long as you include the rim measurement in the 500/320 Flanged N.E. (ie 8x50R Austrian Mannlicher) and the fact the 32-40 Winchester was chambered only in the single-shot version.

Apparently, although I have not yet received the old catalogue promised from overseas, Alex. Martin chambered B.S.A.Co. C.L.L.M. (Charger Loading Lee Metford) actions for the .256 Swift Flanged, as did Fraser, for the .256 Fraser Flanged; both of which are simply the British names, along with .256 Mannlicher, for the 6.5x53R Dutch and/or Roumanian cartridge.

Quite likely, as has already been stated, the rumours about the Lee Speed actioned rifles being chambered for the .405 Winchester are the same as the ones about them being chambered for the .35 W.C.F. They both relate to the Remington-Lee rifles, which was chambered for both of those cartridges.


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