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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Gun show Martini find.
      #260135 - 08/02/15 03:36 PM

Found this Greener Mark III action today at our local gun show. This morning I didn't know I wanted a Martini action, now I want to know more about them. I believe these were used with the 12/14gauge Greener police shotgun if my limited research is correct. I figured for $80 I could keep it around for a conversation starter if I didn't use it for a build.

I'm entertaining thoughts of some interesting builds. A friend used one to make a rifled 12 bore. I'm thinking a rifled 16 bore or perhaps a 577 black power express. Curious what you fellows with more Martini experience have to say about this action. The guy has a couple more so I may grab them tomorrow.

Thanks in advance for any input.

Mart

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: mart]
      #260149 - 09/02/15 04:50 AM

Here, one of the firearms Officers called an "in the rough" Sharps action, a handgun and said it had to be registered.

Seems he saw action threads and thought it was a short barreled handgun. Was wondering who appointed him as the "FireArms Officer"- and why?

Nice "Pistol" you've got there, Mart.

I have one of those - a Too - Tight 12 bore - not a Greener, though - good find. It takes 12 bore plastics, but blows the primers.

I am thinking along the lines of a 16 bore rifle as being a nice size for bear, moose, deer - whatever.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: DarylS]
      #260152 - 09/02/15 05:52 AM

Here is, below other things, my .45-70 on a Greener MkIII Martini action. 22" Numrich barrel, Parker-Hale peep sight, home made stock.

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Norman4
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Reged: 16/01/15
Posts: 111
Loc: Vermont,USA
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: kuduae]
      #260153 - 09/02/15 09:56 AM

Seems like I remember some of the Greeners having a strange type of firing pin?

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: Norman4]
      #260156 - 09/02/15 10:08 AM

The protrusion is excessive on mine, not a 3-pringed pin like some of the made for India jail-guard guns. The extra protrusion explains the pierced primers - along with a VERY tight bore - close to 13 bore but chambered for the full diameter paper case.

Getting back to Mart's gun, I think a 16 bore rifle would be nice!

About pins- is your firing pin normal, Mart?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: DarylS]
      #260160 - 09/02/15 10:36 AM

I picked up a second one today from the same fellow. One has the three openings in the bolt face and the other a single opening for the firing pin but what I would consider excessive protrusion.

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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: mart]
      #260161 - 09/02/15 10:39 AM

I'm curious how the forend attaches on a Martini. I've never paid much attention to them in the past. Where might a guy find an extractor that could be opened up for a 16 bore. These are both 12 bore extractors I'm sure. I would think I'd need a different extractor for a 16.

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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
Posts: 849
Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: mart]
      #260166 - 09/02/15 11:23 AM

mart:
use the same extractor, just tig weld it up and reshape it. the forend attaches to the barrel with a simple dovetail threaded stud. There pretty simple actions, I have a cadet. You will probably have to bush the firing pin hole in the breach block and either reshape the firing pin or make a new one in a smaller diameter. If the cartridge your using is a large rifle; pin size should be about .062 in dia.
Bob

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: aromakr]
      #260169 - 09/02/15 12:31 PM

The three opening bolt face, is the one that had the 3-piece firing pin that needed special ammunition only issued to the UK Police and jails.

With the 3-piece pin, the gun would not discharge normal shotshells as the two outside projections would stop the pin before it hit the primer by hitting the shell's head beside the primer. Issued buckshot ammo for these guns had a groove around the primer for those projections. This might have been a rather short sighted technicality if one of them has a screwdriver and a file along with a modicum of imagination.

YES - tig some material for the extension and file/grind it to shape for a 16 bore, or smaller casing.

I've had to do that to several guns and it results in a perfect fit.

I think the pins might be just fine for BP level to 1,800fps loads with 600gr. bullets? Any comments - welcomed?

The left one is too long, of course. Much depends on the headspace, but that is about double too long by the looks of it - don't know why. Look at the other one's projection.

I suspect my Martini has that long a pin as well. I'll have to measure it with a rod.

If the pin is like yours, a .450 Alaskan for 1,500fps, 500gr. loads might be in order, as I already have the reamer (2chambers cut), as well, I have a .458 'American' piloted reamer that has cut only 2 chambers as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: DarylS]
      #260173 - 09/02/15 01:53 PM

Thanks guys for the replies. I'm thinking hard about a 12 bore on the first one for simplicity's sake. No extractor to change. There's an outfit in Oregon that normally makes muzzleloader barrels but will make a rifle barrel from 4140 for me. I just need to decide whether I want to make it for round balls or or conicals and what to use for a twist and rifling depth. Round balls would take a 1 in 100 inch twist, I'm not sure how much twist for a heavy conical. Accurate Molds makes a nice looking 850 grain that would be a serious thumper.

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 336
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: mart]
      #260195 - 10/02/15 01:19 AM

Hey Mart. This one is almost too easy.

I have had a couple of the Greener police shotguns, one of which I still own, and the conversion is simple.
The perfect length for a chamber is probably 2.5" as the 2.75 needs some help to remove the case after firing. Martini geometry.
The idea for a ball gun sounds great +1

See what you can do with the stock design, I fire standard fosters through mine and the recoil is brutal

Good luck with the project.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: Tom_H]
      #260197 - 10/02/15 02:50 AM

Tom,

I'm thinking a straight octagon barrel from The Gun Works in Oregon. That would get the weight up there where it might not be so rough on a fellow for recoil. I noticed the 2 3/4 hull I tried yesterday was a touch long and thought the 2.5 inch might be the way to go.

Mart

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: mart]
      #260201 - 10/02/15 03:22 AM

I will never understand why Greener made that shotgun action so graceless. Perhaps to accommodate shotgun cartridges. Their rifle action is so much more pleasant appearing.





That shot gun action also has the deeper seated hing recess making assembly more difficult than it should.

I have .577 2 3/4" NE on a Greener shotgun action and it is a beast.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: DoubleD]
      #260204 - 10/02/15 04:17 AM

Mart- do not worry about a REALLY slow twist for round balls. Having been involved in ML rifles for decades, we've found a 12 bore will shoot with amazing accuracy, with round balls with as much powder as your shoulder can stand with as quick as a 66" twist.

One shooting buddy of mine, when seeing my 14 bor0 rifle, had my bro make him an 11 bore Purdey style rifle in - .75 cal.

He started off with a thickly patched 575gr.WW round ball (.735") and 200gr. of powder, just over 7 drams. It shot with good good accuracy right off the bat - 3" at 100 meters, elbow resting off the pickup hood. Over the years, he reduced the load to 120gr. just to keep the balls inside the moose, with little or no loss in killing power.

That rifle has 'collected' a couple dozen (or more) moose over the years and oft times, it's the only rifle my friend uses, for moose when on group hunts with family. It is effective.

As well, the 66" to 70" twist will shoot short conicals just fine, but - round balls are where IT'S at.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: DarylS]
      #260209 - 10/02/15 06:30 AM

Daryl,

I've shot muzzleloaders for many years. I have a 62 cal with a 1 in 66 twist and it shoots round balls incredibly well. I had a Lyman deerstalker 50 cal with a pretty tight twist, 1 in 24 I think, that it would shoot RB's just fine.

I am thinking maybe the barrel should be made to shoot up to the Accurate Molds 850 grain 12 gauge bullet. I'm not sure what twist that would take, perhaps 1 in 48. I'm sure that would still shoot RB's just fine. Might be a bit rough on a fellow torching off those 850's though. Might be better off to stick to the RB's. In that big a round ball they are a pretty substantial projectile.

Mart

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: mart]
      #260220 - 10/02/15 08:04 AM

Even the little 16 bore, was listed as being suitable for all Indian game, if loaded with round balls. Forsyth listed the 16 bore as the smallest suitable rifle calibre.

A 437gr. ball is certainly easier to shoot than a 550gr. ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mart
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: Gun show Martini find. [Re: DarylS]
      #260401 - 13/02/15 03:47 AM

Gentlemen,

I'm thinking real hard on this 12 bore rifle. Gun Works will make an octagon barrel, straight or tapered from 4140. I'm thinking 24 inches and straight but am open to suggestions. I'm leaning more heavily toward a round ball gun with the possibility of a conical occasionally. What are your thoughts on twist, 1/48, 1/66, 1/80 and rifling depth? I have tons of paper Federal hulls but could go brass if that would be better. Would the chamber and bore dimensions be different if I was going with brass cases?

I will have to do some research on whom I should use to barrel the action. Do you gent's know of anyone turning out semi inlet stocks for the big Martinis? Thanks again for the advice guys.

Mart

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