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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action
      #259601 - 29/01/15 07:04 AM

I posted this in a discussion on another forum before, but it may be of some interest to the members here too. You find the original discussion on the German Gun Collectors Association forum
http://www.germanguns.com/upload/showthr...-Rifle-(c-1912)
In 1896 the German army conducted some tests for a replacement for the M88 "Commission" military rifle that led to the ultimate adoption of the Mauser 98 action. A total of about 2000 experimental rifles were made by Mauser, Oberndorf, for various experimental cartridges from 6 to 8 mm. After the end of these tests Mauser took back the rifles, dismantled them and sold the actions to gunmakers. Here I am concerned with the virtually unknown first version of these experimental rifles. These are small ring standard length actions, still cocking on closing like the Swedish miltary M94/96 action. Improvements over the Swedes are: They already have the reinforcing collar inside the receiver ring, the third safety locking lug and the gas flange on the bolt sleeve. I call them "pre-transitional", as they are another step in the evolution that led to the 1898 action.
Both the pre-transitional and transitional actions are so rare that nearly nobody knows them. In fact, neither Lud Olson nor Jon Speed had ever seen a real cock on closing pre-transitional action until I showed them one, borrowed each time from a fellow forester. Lud visited me in 1992, and I just retrieved Jon's date 2001 in his "Mauser Archive" book, page 25. Other "authorities" on Mausers like de Haas, Ball, Walter don't even mention these actions. Some old German gun catalogs give sparse hints only to their existence: Oscar Will, Venus-Waffenwerke in Zella, 1902/3, offered two typical "Suhl" Mauser sporters, calling them Mod.97 at Mark 96.- and Mod.99 at Mark 100.-, "Mod. 97 cocks on closing, Mod.99 cocks on opening!" Burgsmueller, Kreiensen, 1910: "Newest Mauser cliploading repeating hunting rifles, Modell 98/99 respective 1902. The locks of these new repeaters cock on opening, not to be confused with older rifles Modell 97, which cock on closing." That's all I have found so far.
As a member of another forum doubted a standard length M98 bolt may be used in these receivers, I took a new series of photos.
The complete rifle is not intresting, as it was restocked and rebarreled, likely several times during the past century, now 7x57. It's still a working hunting rifle and probably been so for several generations. The action and bolt are the incredibly low Mauser commercial serial number 17 under receiver ring, on rear wall of the magazine and on other parts. It is a standard length action. The set trigger is of the Mauser commercial type, integral with the bottom metal, without a separate aftermarket housing.
Here are two pics with the original, cock on closing bolt, cocked:





And here it is with a WW2 vintage Kar 98K bolt. As you see, it fits the receiver as well as the original one.



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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: kuduae]
      #259602 - 29/01/15 07:08 AM

Here are the bolt bodies, top 97 test, bottom M98. The cocking cam is behind the bolt handle on the 98



Note: No gas escape holes on 96, wide holes on 98



The firing pin assemblies. 96 without bolt sleeve lock and forward safety lugs on firing pin.





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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: kuduae]
      #259604 - 29/01/15 07:10 AM

The Mauser commercial serial number 17 under receiver ring



bottom metal with Mauser factory double set trigger assembly and 17 on rear wall of magazine. The floorplate is lever detachble, not hinged.



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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: kuduae]
      #259605 - 29/01/15 07:19 AM

Another rifle by J.P. Sauer & Sohn in 8x57I on such a cock on closing 97 test action:






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Norman4
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: kuduae]
      #259612 - 29/01/15 08:51 AM

Wow. I can only imagine how long it took to research and find these rifles! Makes one wonder about the possibility that somewhere in the last half century I might have handled one and never known what I was looking at. A man's education is never finished! Norman4

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: Norman4]
      #259622 - 29/01/15 12:11 PM

Is there any way that a cocking peice from a '96 can be used on a '98 bolt?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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lancaster
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: Huvius]
      #259624 - 29/01/15 03:01 PM

the pics of this bolt are very disturbing because they are against everything you believe to know when seeing M 94 or M 98 actions and thats where the mind will sort it in subliminally. it simply does not fit into the common viewing patterns. was the pre transitional action also sold to england? I believe we had sporting rifles with transitional actions by british gunmaker before.

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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (29/01/15 03:02 PM)


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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: lancaster]
      #259632 - 29/01/15 07:58 PM

kuduae,
I am wondering why the firing pin of this "M97 action" looks so much shorter,
when the standard-length M98 bolt is interchangeable?
Is this a photographic illusion?

This is a very interesting topic, thanks for posting!
Also it's heart-warming that this historic action is still in active service.
Regards, fuhrmann


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xausa
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Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: fuhrmann]
      #259637 - 29/01/15 11:15 PM

Quote:

I am wondering why the firing pin of this "M97 action" looks so much shorter,
when the standard-length M98 bolt is interchangeable?
Is this a photographic illusion?




Look at the photos of the two bolts. "The cocking cam is behind the bolt handle on the 98." The 98 bolt is the length of the cocking cam longer, ergo so is the firing pin. The dimensions of the two bolts from the bolt handle forward are the same, so the 98 bolt fits the 97 receiver and the extra length protrudes behind the bolt handle, but is covered up by the cocking piece shroud.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: xausa]
      #259640 - 29/01/15 11:28 PM

Question: "I am wondering why the firing pin of this "M97 action" looks so much shorter,
when the standard-length M98 bolt is interchangeable?
Is this a photographic illusion?"

Mostly photographic illusion, as I took the photos at an angle to get the essentials. In part for another reason: The firing pins are of the same length, but the 97 one has a longer firing pin travel than the 98. As both assemblies are shown cocked, the 97 one is farther back relative to the bolt sleeve. As the rear end protudes more, the front end seems to be shorter.

Question:" was the pre transitional action also sold to england? I believe we had sporting rifles with transitional actions by british gunmaker before."
I don't know. Apparently nobody has looked close enough at the very early .275 Rigbys and others. This one seems to be a .275 Rigby on such a "97" pre-transitional cock on closing action, going by the checkered safety:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=218762&an=0&page=8#Post218762

. The 1896 tests tried two action types: The cock on closing "model 97" shown here and the advanced, cock on opening "98 transitional" type. "True" transitional type actions or transitional bolts appeared here before, both in intermediate length as used by Rigby or standard length.
See these threads: both show early Mauser 98 rifles with transitional bolt bodies, firing pins and firing pin nuts with later bolt sleeves with sleeve locks, in rifles with 98 large ring receivers.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=231141&an=0&page=1#Post231141
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=231334&an=0&page=2#Post231334
As a transitional bolt body does not have the recesses for the safety firing pin lugs on the striker 's collar, and Mauser changed the interrupted threads at the rear end slightly, you have to use a transitional firing pin and nut in a transitional bolt body. As you see, these three parts can be combined with a "modern" bolt sleeve with lock.
Cock on opening transitional 98 actions were shown here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=247307&an=0&page=0#Post247307
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=90810&an=0&page=10#Post90810
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=91206&an=0&page=10#Post91206
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=106278&an=0&page=26#Post106278

Question: "Is there any way that a cocking peice from a '96 can be used on a '98 bolt?"
No, see the photos. Additionally, Mauser slightly changed the interrupted thread from the transitional to the fully developed 98.


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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: kuduae]
      #259683 - 30/01/15 07:19 PM

kuduae,
thanks for the explanation!
fuhrmann


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The ultra rare Mauser 97 pre-transitional action [Re: lancaster]
      #260868 - 21/02/15 06:51 AM

Quote:

was the pre transitional action also sold to england? I believe we had sporting rifles with transitional actions by british gunmaker before.




Yes! The very early .275 Rigby, Mauser serial number 10, Rigby's sn 1059 is on such a pre-transitional, cock on closing action:



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