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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns?
      #259571 - 28/01/15 03:06 PM

Does anyone know much about E.J Churchill shotguns? I emailed them the serial number (6292), will see of they get back to me.

Will post pics when I get home, wondering what the crown engraved on the belly means in particular. It's an XXV model.

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Ash
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Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: Ash]
      #259582 - 28/01/15 09:43 PM

Buttstock needs a refinishing and i want to get the barrel tightened up (she's a little bit loose).



























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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Loc: Colorado
Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: Ash]
      #259587 - 29/01/15 12:33 AM

I don't know much about Churchill per se', but do know that they were known for shotguns with short barrels as yours has and the narrow rib, which I think has a name but I am not remembering right now.
Looks like your example would be an excellent candidate for restoration.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Norman4
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Reged: 16/01/15
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: Huvius]
      #259599 - 29/01/15 05:09 AM

Quote:

I don't know much about Churchill per se', but do know that they were known for shotguns with short barrels as yours has and the narrow rib, which I think has a name but I am not remembering right now.
Looks like your example would be an excellent candidate for restoration.



Very Classy. I'd second Huvius. Good solid gun. She'd be a beauty with a little time and money. Looks like she'd be a fast handler too. Norman4

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: Norman4]
      #259608 - 29/01/15 08:17 AM

Interesting - I thought the XXV Churchill was merely one model of W.W. Greener shotguns.

Obviously not.

I can only assume the Churchill was used in the 9th Edition of "The Gun" etc. as an example of a very fast handling, snap shooting short gun that had VERY thin muzzles that were not damaged by firing - or something along those lines.

V-nice.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: DarylS]
      #259660 - 30/01/15 07:16 AM

OMG,what a bunch of Anglophile shotgun lovers who who never heard about "The Other Mr.Churchill" (title of a book) and his XXV shotguns with "Churchill ribs"!
The E.J.Churchill firm was founded in 1891. After E.J.'s death in 1910 the firm was run by his nephew Robert Churchill, 1886 – 1958. The firm was then amalgamated into Churchill, Atkin, Grant & Lang. C, A,G & L ceased to trade in 1980.
Robert Churchill worked as a forensic ballistician too, and operated his own shooting school, but he is best known for his book "How to Shoot", 1955, later expanded by Hastings. some finds on the net:
http://www.doncurrie.com/churchill-method-of-shooting
http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/dp/0924357118
http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/game-shooting/author/robert-churchill/
Myself, I learned the halfway proper use of a shotgun with the help of the German translation of his book, "Das Flintenschiessen". As a result I bought a second hand Spanish Aya XXV boxlock many years ago.
Post-WW1 propagated the use of short, 25", shotgun barrels for game shooting. As some people complained about the barrels appearing " stubby" when aiming over the rib, Robert Churchill invented the narrow rib to create the illusion of a much longer barrel. His speciality was the Churchill XXV shotgun, aptly named so for the barrel length. So such a narrow rib is commonly known as a "Churchill rib". On order his guns were available with conventional longer barrels too, but he discouraged their use. Besides some over-unders available on order, Churchill recommended side by sides. In his book he favored boxlocks, as they balanced better in his opinion. He offered two grades of sidelock s/s, named "The Premiere" and "Imperial", and three boxlock grades, the "Hercules", the "Regal" and the "Crown". So the "mystery" of the crown engraved on your gun is solved.
Later, his style of guns, boxlocks with 25" barrels and Churchill rib, were copied by other gunmakers like Greener and Aya, as a demand was kept alive by his book and fame.

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Huvius
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: kuduae]
      #259673 - 30/01/15 02:48 PM

Ha Ha Ha!!!
I just couldn't remember the name of that thin rib on that Churchill....
For that matter, for the life of me I cannot recall the name of that darn crossbolt on my Greener...

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Ash
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Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: kuduae]
      #259677 - 30/01/15 05:14 PM

So it's a Crown grade, cheers. Not sure how the rating order went?

Intend on getting it refinished properly, dont worry

Should be fun. I like the rib, havent had a chance to use it yet...Waiting on the paperwork to pick it up. But saw this shotgun on another forum and someone said "This will be a good buy for someone if it's what i think it is, need pics of the muzzles and rib". So i got the fellow to explain, then got the pics. He said its all original and would be a good buy, and asked if i was going to get it. I said if you don't i will. He said "go for it" so i did. Here's what he told me, i wouldnt have gotten it if he didnt point it on.

"Legend has it that when pattern testing and regulating a client's new gun in the early 20th century, they had a muzzle blowup. Putting new barrels on in a hurry was too much time and money, so they trimmed back to 25" made up a but of a spiel and hoped they'd get away with it, and discovered that it was actually a very dynamic handling gun. At any rate, EJ Churchill subsequently made a name for themselves with 25" guns, and I haven't seen one yet that wasn't a superbly made, fast-handling gun."


This ones got ejectors and a midway bead thing (2 new things for me).
It's choked 1/2 and full. I got told it may be a pigeon gun (what does that mean?)

The muzzles aren't thin. The shotgun does have a bit of a clubby look, but i like it, and it feels nice. Can't wait to give it a crack on the starlings. If i move to the US of A (Oklahoma) i think this will accompany me when i try and get starling properties (there's SO MANY down there!!!!).

Anyways, this is my first English shotgun, and despite its condition, i'm in love

Thanks Kuduae, and everyone, for your info.


Now to find the right person to restore it.

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kuduae
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: Ash]
      #259687 - 30/01/15 08:20 PM

Ash: So it's a Crown grade, cheers. Not sure how the rating order went?

The "Crown" was the highest grade boxlock offered. When I find the book, I will post some of the photos of Mr.Churchill in his unique shooting Outfit, a "must see" IMHO.

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DarylS
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: kuduae]
      #259708 - 31/01/15 03:57 AM

Pigeon gun means it was designed for shooting 'trapped' pigeons. Again, Greener's book has pictures and drawings of live pigeon shooting.

We used to do a similar deal here when training our spaniels to find, flush and then retrieve birds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: DarylS]
      #259712 - 31/01/15 04:52 AM

AFAIK noone here called it a "pigeon gun". Pigeon guns were specially designed for the sport of life pigeon shooting, as described by Greener. They usually have long, tightly choked barrels and more often than not no safeties. In a way they were similar to modern Olympic trap guns.
Churchill designed his XXV as Game Guns. A "British Game Gun" is built for "Formal Shooting" in the first place, that is shooting at driven pheasants, partridge or Scottish grouse. This ideally is shooting at birds flying over a line of "guns", so most shooting is upwards. Game guns are also used for "Rough Shooting" in Britain, that is fur and feather hunting as you probably know better: rough shooting is following your dog, be it a spaniel, pointer or setter, through fields and brushes, shooting at birds and/or hares and rabbits your dog flushes.
Sitting in a blind near water and shooting at ducks and geese is "Waterfowling" in British parlance, requiring a "Fowling Gun", most often of less quality and embellishment than a "Game Gun", but shooting heavier loads for more reach.
Carrying a rifle and looking for deer, either walking through the forests or sitting on a high seat, is "Stalking".
"Big Game Hunting" is travelling to the former colonies in Africa or India and shooting elephant, buffalo, Lion or tiger.
None of these sports is simply "Hunting". When an Englishman goes "Hunting" he puts on a red jacket, mounts a horse and chases after hounds and foxes.
These subtleties were explained to me many years ago by a friendly clerk at the largest London bookshop when a dumb Kraut asked for books on hunting.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: kuduae]
      #259742 - 31/01/15 11:15 PM

I once owned a Churchill XXV in 10 bore. On display in Holland & Holland's London store, it came with a "cross over" stock, designed to allow a right handed shooter to shoot off the right shoulder but aim with the left eye. H&H graciously offered to have the gun restocked for me, using plain, but serviceable wood ("not from the box the wood came in") and in due course the gun arrived. It was a pleasure to shoot, but was not, alas, chambered for the 3" shells I then thought necessary for "waterfowling", so in a moment of weakness I sold it, more's the pity.

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sbs470
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: xausa]
      #259779 - 01/02/15 10:31 AM

Ash Congratulations on buying a great piece of British gunmaking .

I have had a good look through Don Masters wonderful book.The House of Churchill.

You gun was made in the tail end of 1939.

The Crown retailed at that time for 35 pound Stirling.
The crown underneath is a Baronet's crown. They did make a second grade sidelock with an Imperial crown .
The crown was discontinued not long after yours was built ,and reintroduced in the 60s.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Crown is not at the top of the list but at the other end of the scale.
It is not listed in the 1922 catalogue.
The legdend is a furphy.

There is quite a bit of space in this book dedicated to the development of the XXV.
Now that you own a Churchill I would recommend buying this book.

sbs470

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: sbs470]
      #259785 - 01/02/15 01:40 PM

Ash, the good thing with most British gun companies is that guns listed as entry level or base model where still very well made, not necessarily with lots of embellishment but still well made. The tradesman took pride in their work. Your model has plenty of elegant scroll engraving so it is definitely worth restoring. It will be beauty when finished.

Waidmannsheil.

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There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: sbs470]
      #259866 - 02/02/15 09:20 PM

Thanks guys, no worries on the low grade end, it's still the nicest shotgun i own

1939 ay. I'll look into ordering a copy of this book right away.


Cheers everyone. I'll put it up to 2nd on the list of things to get going/restored.

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kuduae
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: Ash]
      #260062 - 07/02/15 02:50 AM

Here are some photos of Robert Churchill from his book "Game Shooting":

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lancaster
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: kuduae]
      #260071 - 07/02/15 06:14 AM

his clothes showing an extravagant taste

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Anyone know anything about E.J Churchill shotguns? [Re: kuduae]
      #260353 - 12/02/15 03:30 PM

Quote:

OMG,what a bunch of Anglophile shotgun lovers who who never heard about "The Other Mr.Churchill" (title of a book) and his XXV shotguns with "Churchill ribs"!
The E.J.Churchill firm was founded in 1891. ...



Ha ha, yes I am very aware of Churchill shotguns. Plus also some of their double rifles.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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