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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25490 - 01/02/05 02:18 AM

Well, I guess it's hard to decide when to let the cat out of the bag with respect to someone's unethical behavior. On the one hand it will benefit the public to know the tactics of a particular operator so that he can be avoided. On the other hand, it could result in so many allegations from every direction that none of them carry any weight.

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: 500grains]
      #25498 - 01/02/05 05:40 AM

From my experience there's unethical behaviour in most if not all industries and in all businesses and it puts us believers in high ethics in a very difficult position. If we hear of an unethical practice should we tell people or not. If we do, it can and probably will be construed as just sour grapes and trying to put down the opposition and if we don't, we may be encouraging it......or at least giving it our tacit approval.

If we hear of someone booking a hunt in an area we know there is little game or with someone who we know is a crook, or for some reason we know the client will have problems getting his trophies out, should we keep quiet and mind our own business or should we say something?......at the end of the day, the client is a big boy and it's his (or her) money, so what business is it of ours to tell them how to spend it....

You might notice that if I ever post anything "unpleasant", I'll never mention personal or company names as I consider it not only unprofessional but also open to allowing forum members (and others) to misinterpret my post as just a cheap shot at the competition.....same thing I guess!

As I said in an earlier post, I wasn't sure about posting the information, but in the end I felt I would be doing the principal of the forum a disservice if I took the cowards way out and kept quiet.

South Africa has it's fair share of great hunting, it has some great outfitters and great PHs......but some are "not so great" and the best way any client can avoid many of the pitfalls is to hunt SA for what it best for .......plains game.

Hunters need to realise that there is no such thing as a truly wild Lion or Elephant there and that the licencing system for some species is not organised enough to be sure of getting a fair chase hunt (esp) for Dangerous Game......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (01/02/05 03:34 PM)


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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25527 - 01/02/05 07:55 PM

Steve,

On one of my only 2 visits to Kruger Park, there were big lions literally on the boundary line. Yeah, maybe they never wander from the park but I wouldn't be surprised that some elephant and lion could be had if hunted on property bordering the park.

I see such a situation as not being any different than any sanctuary boundary hunting whether in any African country, the USA, or elsewhere.

While not all hunts in SA may be legit, I wouldn't necessarily say they are all bad. And not all leopard hunts can be a piece of cake, where the leopards are "stupid."

Mostly all this DG hunting boils down to money as opposed to any hunting prowess on the part of the client-hunter or the ability of the bwana PH. If you want big elephant, you go to Botswana where there are a lot of big and stupid elephants, and spend mega bucks to do it, etc.

That is why the rich dudes invariably wind up with the biggest and best trophies, and why white-trash like me wind up hunting leopard several times before getting one.

And then are always people with an axe to grind...

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25528 - 01/02/05 08:37 PM

Steve

I really wonder about clients whom get taken in by a frozen leopard. The PH must try to keep the client away from the animal. What if it isn't completely thawed? What if it has started to smell, but has only just been shot? Its eyes I would have thought would certainly show damage from being frozen ???

The pissing on the ground to drive leopards away from bait and so make several higher day rate hunts for each licence unfortunately is too easy to do and impossible to discover.

I like the idea of negotiating a higher trophy fee for a lower daily rate for leopard (and lion) hunts. How many hunts do we read of unsuccessful lion bookings and safaris on the net versus successful ones. Certainly puts the pressure back on the outfitter to do their best to deliver the goods. But I wonder if any outfitters would agree to such a proposal.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: NitroX]
      #25538 - 02/02/05 04:37 AM

Will,

I think the difference between the areas bordering SA Parks and places like TZ etc is that the SA park animals are incredibly habituated to vehicles as they probably see dozens if not hundreds of vehicles every day.......in the more remote parks they probably don't see that many in a week or a month. I've had plenty of experiences in the KNP for example where you park the car and the animal will come and sniff at the door/window in the hope it's going to fed.......that must mean that some tourists (regularly?) slip food out of a slightly open window.......I've never seen that behaviour in the more remote parks such as Serengeti etc.

I won't go into the SA Elephant hunting situation too much, as it's too complicated a subject, but it's nothing like most other places in Africa. You can almost walk up to a KNP Elephant (for example) with a brass band playing and slap it on the ass with a cricket bat.......and you know how different that is to a truly wild Elephant, or a Selous Elephant that's come across from a photographic area.

.........But you're dead right when you say that the amount you spend on a hunt often has a direct affect on the rate of success........ I appreciate that there's a lot of guys out there who really have to stretch their finances to get here at all, but at the end of the day if you don't spend enough money, you won't get anything like the same results as you would get if you spent a few dollars more......as I've said before, you pay peanuts - you get monkeys.......and there's at least as many predators in the African hunting industry as there are in the bush!

John,

I guess it all depends on the outfitter and on the country the hunt takes place in.

We wouldn't accept that deal, and have never been asked to do so, but the vast majority of DG hunts we offer are in True Wilderness Areas and we're fortunate enough to have been in the business for enough years (and worked hard enough) to have built up a good enough reputation for clients to trust us.......But I don't think it's an unreasonable request for a Leopard hunt in SA.

I get so pissed off at the DG hunting situation here it's not true!........and yet so many people are dumb enough to believe they're actually getting a wild hunt. Like I said, one should try not to take too much at face value in Africa.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (02/02/05 04:45 AM)


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butchloc
.300 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 230
Loc: faribault mn
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: NitroX]
      #25542 - 02/02/05 07:03 AM

nitrox - in reagrds to your qestion on the frozen leopards. I remember the incident pretty well, this particular outfitter would go out and buy a cat from a zoo. Kill it and freeze if in a position. Then he'd take the hunter out and point out the cat and yell shoot quick. The hunter would shoot, and then be instructed that they had to wait quite a while for the cat to die because he had made a poor hit. This lasted un til one guy knew he'd hit the cat well and insisted on going up to the carcas on his own. Four the cat had't quite thawed out yet and raised holy hell about it.

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BrnBear
.224 member


Reged: 07/12/04
Posts: 19
Loc: USA
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25640 - 04/02/05 03:17 PM

Excellent post Steve! Thank you.
You are correct, the same type of shennigans go on in Alaska when Brown Bear hunting.


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: BrnBear]
      #25646 - 04/02/05 04:22 PM

BrnBear

They freeze Brown Bears?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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BrnBear
.224 member


Reged: 07/12/04
Posts: 19
Loc: USA
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: mickey]
      #25744 - 06/02/05 06:23 AM

Mick:
I've never seen a frozen Brown Bear, but it may be possible.
I was refering to "the same type" of shennagins. If there's big bucks involved, you can bet some crook will figure out a way to cheat the system.


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