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AfricanBigGameTrails
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Reged: 15/06/14
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Loc: Hoedspruit, South Africa
Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks.
      #249174 - 18/06/14 07:38 AM

Hi folks…

I took my O/U 93x74R shooting today for the first time in about 3 years, (changed house, changed job, changed career, moved across the continent…) and I was horrified to discover that my bottom barrel chamber is spitting out cases with cracks in the neck!!!

These were brand spanking new factory rounds, never fired, never reloaded. Granted, they have also been sitting in my safe for a few years, but they are still "new" factory ammo…
What does this mean? I'm fearing the worst, that the chamber is pitted…???

The barrel is shooting beautifully, 1" groups, exactly on point of aim, but its treatment of the cases is unacceptable.

Does anyone have any ideas of why this is happening and what can be done to solve this problem?
Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Pete.

--------------------
Walk quietly, but carry a big stick!

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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: AfricanBigGameTrails]
      #249178 - 18/06/14 09:26 AM

What brand of ammo were you using ? Try a different brand and see if you get the same result ,Is your rifle new or older rifle ? A fellow i met told if you use reloads dont use mag primers ,as they will cause neck splits in 9.3x74.Contact the manufacturer of the rifle ,what brand is it ?

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500Boswell
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: 500Boswell]
      #249179 - 18/06/14 09:28 AM

the only other thing if if there was oil,grease in the chamber ,if it has not done this before

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: 500Boswell]
      #249181 - 18/06/14 12:00 PM

Unless the chamber is way oversized (or different cartridge/calibre), the brass would be the suspect. Can you post photos of the fired cases?

Is it splitting every case in that chamber?

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DarylS
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #249188 - 18/06/14 01:57 PM

I suspect the brass/ammo if this has not happened previously or now with other brass.

Improperly annealed cases.

If the top barrel is not splitting the necks, measure the fired cases form each chamber to see what the diameters are & how they compare.

I still suspect the brass - they should not be splitting if brand new and previously unfired.

I can also see absolutely no valid reason how or why a 'certain' primer could cause split necks. Increase pressure over other primers - perhaps, decrease pressures, possibly over some other 'hot' primer of course - but to cause split necks - I'm afraid that I find difficult to comprehend.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: DarylS]
      #249195 - 18/06/14 04:26 PM

I have asked the question about annealing 'old' new brass and been told that new unused brass that has been stored for a longish period should be annealed before use. I have some brand new RWS 404 brass (supposedly one of the best brands)still in original packaging and looking as good as the day it was made about 30 years ago but I will definitely anneal this brass before use.
Some of my early Kynoch factory 404 rounds crack necks on firing but the brass that doesn't crack, once annealed, lasts a long time for reloading.

Annealing when done properly will do much more good than any harm and is a very worthwhile and easy practice to give long life to valuable cases.

I've never heard of primers causing brass failure other than early corrosive primers and possible an old wives tale hangover from those days when some of those corrosive primers were hotter for the big cartridges (Elmer Keith mentions this in an article).

I think your problem likely a slightly larger chamber or neck area of the chamber in your bottom barrel but more important is brass that needs annealing before use.

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AkMike
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: eagle27]
      #249202 - 18/06/14 11:21 PM

I suspect that it's Norma ammo. They had a problem with the 9.3 brass several years ago. Many of the ones I bought for loading my Chapuis would separate at the base after 1-3 firings.

Try another brand or the new stock of Norma.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: AkMike]
      #249206 - 19/06/14 02:07 AM

Remember the poster is using FACTORY ammo so annealing isn't a solution to that. Unless it is just a bad batch of cases?

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John aka NitroX

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eagle27
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: NitroX]
      #249211 - 19/06/14 05:24 AM

Yes there is nothing can be done with factory ammo, but definitely anneal the 'good' cases before reloading, if H is a reloader. Cracking necks is not really an issue in terms of firing off the factory ammo, H doesn't say if it is every case in the lower barrel or just the odd one or two.

It really has to be an issue with a slightly larger bottom chamber combined with older brass or maybe as suggested a bad batch of brass. I suspect the ammo is much older than thought, may have been in H's possession for a length of time but when was the ammo manufactured?

A reloader could pull the bullets, save the powder, fire off or punch out the live primer, anneal the case necks and reload again; not worth it for any cartridge that is easy enough to get ammo or cases for!

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DarylS
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: eagle27]
      #249212 - 19/06/14 05:29 AM

Quote:



A reloader could pull the bullets, save the powder, fire off or punch out the live primer, anneal the case necks and reload again; not worth it for any cartridge that is easy enough to get ammo or cases for!



Exactly what I would do! The accuracy of the rifle dictates no other action - even if, as obviously the situation here, the lower chamber is somewhat oversize in the neck - barring a SPLIT chamber which is highly unlikely.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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4seventy
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: AfricanBigGameTrails]
      #249221 - 19/06/14 09:04 AM

Is the brand of the ammo with split necks S&B by any chance?

If so, I'd be trying some RWS factory ammo or reloaded RWS cases and see how they go.

My experience with S&B factory ammo was that some of the brass was a tad brittle, and occasionally split the case necks.

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AfricanBigGameTrails
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Reged: 15/06/14
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Loc: Hoedspruit, South Africa
Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: 4seventy]
      #249268 - 21/06/14 03:20 AM

Hi Folks,

Sorry for the late reply, I've been out in the bush for a few days.

I'll try and answer the questions :-)

The rifle is a beautiful Franz Sodia of Ferlach. Unfortunately he has long since passed away, so I can't contact him.

4seventy - Yes, the ammo was S&B. Old S&B that I have had in my safe for at least 4 years. 9,3x74R is not a very popular caliber where I live, so who knows how long it had been sitting on the dealers shelf before I bought it…?

500Boswell - I don't think the problem was oil or grease in the chamber, I had already fired 4 reloaded rounds through each barrel that morning before I started on the new box of S&B, and the old reloaded cased were fine, no signs of cracks of distortion.

The gun has never damaged cases like this before, I must have fired 80 plus rounds through each barrel, (most of these reloads which I have reloaded over and over again) and never had this problem before. It seems to have only started with this box of "new" S&B ammo.

Also, not every case of the "new" S&B ammo fired in that barrel cracked. I fired 10 rounds, 5 through the top barrel and 5 through the bottom, of the 10 only 3 seem to have cracked.

OK, so I have just spent an hour CAREFULLY examined all 40 of my reload cases, which have been reloaded about 7 times each, and I also CAREFULLY examined the 10 "new" S&B cases.
Through a process of elimination and logic (I think…???), I think I may have found an answer and a conclusion… Tell me if you think my thinking is correct please?

It must be noted, after the close scrutinizing I can tell which case was fired in a chamber, as the firing pin of one of the chambers apparently does not retract completely voluntarily, and leaves a slight scratch on the primer, identifying that case as being fired in that chamber. I don’t know which one it is, but I can now group cases together according to which chamber it was fired in.

Here are my findings:
Of my 40 reload cases, 18 out of 40 have very slight hairline cracks (I think this can be expected after being fired 7 times and never annealed, am I right in thinking this…?). Of these, 11 were last fired in the primer scaring chamber, 7 in the other.
22 of the 40 cases showed NO cracks at all. 9 of these were last fired in the primer scaring chamber, 13 in the other. All of these cases will have been fired in both barrels numerous times during the last 7 reloadings, so I don't think it is fare to point a finger at one specific barrel accusing it of causing hairline cracks.

Of the 10 "new" S&B cases. Only 3 were cracked, and they are big “blow out” cracks. The other 7 show no cracks at all. Of the 3, only 2 were fired in the primer scaring chamber!!! YAY!!!

Up to 10 minutes ago I was blaming the bottom chamber for cracking the case necks, fearing the worst, a pitted, eroded or cracked chamber!!! Now I think I can safely say cracked cases have come out of both chambers, and I would there for like to surmise that it is not the chambers, but a bad batch of brass that is responsible for the cracked necks.

Phew, I’ve just made my self feel so much better about my “sick” rifle!!!
But please, if you disagree with my thinking let me know. There may well be something I have missed or over looked…?

I will try and post some pics of the cracked cases.

Many thanks,
Pete.

--------------------
Walk quietly, but carry a big stick!

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AfricanBigGameTrails
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Reged: 15/06/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Hoedspruit, South Africa
Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. *DELETED* [Re: AfricanBigGameTrails]
      #249269 - 21/06/14 03:49 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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AfricanBigGameTrails
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Reged: 15/06/14
Posts: 12
Loc: Hoedspruit, South Africa
Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: AfricanBigGameTrails]
      #249270 - 21/06/14 03:57 AM

Dosent seem to have worked… Lets try again.

Here are the 3 cracked cases that started all of this…



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Walk quietly, but carry a big stick!

Edited by NitroX (24/06/14 05:04 PM)

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AfricanBigGameTrails
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Reged: 15/06/14
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Loc: Hoedspruit, South Africa
Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. *DELETED* [Re: AfricanBigGameTrails]
      #249271 - 21/06/14 03:59 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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DarylS
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: AfricanBigGameTrails]
      #249272 - 21/06/14 06:08 AM

They are typical of brittle brass situation, nothing more.

Top right corner next to the reply, quote buttons, is an edit button to click on, they you can chose to delete the post by clicking on the DELETE button in the bottom left corner of the 'edit' screen that pops us- then confirm the delete.

If there is no "edit" button, then enough time has passed between now and when you posted it, for it to become permanent, unless a moderator will delete it for you. I wouldn't worry about it - at all.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: DarylS]
      #249277 - 21/06/14 07:36 AM

Pete, you are really on to it and have done what I always advise when having problems with firearms, slow things down have a good look at what is happening and a good think about sequences of events. As with any firearm,double, single or bolt, every chamber is different and it is absolutely certain that each chamber in a double cam be slightly different in dimensions than the other. Normally this will not be noticeable to the owner and cause no issues. With brittle brass as in your case the case neck splitting can manifest itself in one chamber and not necessarily the other, although now that you have taken special note, you are experiencing it in both chambers.

The good news, your gun is fine, the bad is that you will continue to lose cases from that batch of S&B ammo from classic brittleness of brass, maybe age related or could well be a badly annealed batch. All factory brass is annealed, some show the colour change on the brass, others have it polished off before loading.

Are your S&B cases berdan primed, if so probably not worth worrying about keeping to reload. If boxer primed and you really need the cases for reloading then do as I advised earlier, pull your S&B ammo down and anneal the neck and shoulder area and do this (annealing)to all your other cases as well then you will enjoy a very long life from them.

As to shooting a lot of ammo in a gun where the necks or shoulder split, I have not observed any any great gas escape which potentially could gas cut chambers. I suspect that the splitting occurs possibly a fraction of a second after the powder burn and the bullet has left the barrel. I have seen cases that do not obturate properly in the chamber due to low pressure loads and they certainly show signs of gas blow by.

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93x64mm
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: DarylS]
      #249279 - 21/06/14 07:59 AM

ABGT
I had a 7mm Rem Magnum that did exactly that - with brand new unprimed Winchester brass.
The first loads were just 'starting" loads to work up from there, I split at the neck just like that every case I fired, yes there was a bad batch of brass that came in & it was taken back by my gunshop & exchanged.
Annealing is not a hard task, I use a 17mm long socket with a coachscrew's thread turned down to fit through the drive & into a battery drill. An old primus torch with a small nozzle for soldering & a bucket of water to tip them into.
I've tried heat sensitive crayons but they melt the same colour as the brass!
So I simply heated the neck & just over the shoulder region of the case to a slight change in colour whilst on very slow speed & dunked in water to avoid any extra annealing towards the head.
Do not heat cases to cherry red - they're buggered if you do that!
I have 9.3x64mm (RWS) & .308 Norma cases that I've had for over 25 years; I don't do a lot of shooting like most of you blokes but I religiously check for any internal cracks, splits etc every time after case cleaning - no losses since annealing!
If the brass is still good & hasn't split then I would anneal, it will extend the normal case life way beyond the normal 10 or so reloads.
regards
93x64mm

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: 93x64mm]
      #249399 - 24/06/14 05:10 PM

I wonder if one of our reloading experts could create an annealing thread, ie how to do it, with photos etc?

I have never done it to any of my cases btw. I usually use new or newish brass for any important hunts. The others used for mass shootings (hunts) or target practice.

I read once, to do it stand the brass in water up to the shoulder or necks (?) and then heat the brass, tipping them in after heating them. Different to the above (?). Perhaps discuss in the new thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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mauserand9mm
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: NitroX]
      #249461 - 25/06/14 11:59 AM

Graeme Wright has a section in his book about this. There's three methods he recommends, the first two involve holding the case on you bare hands - the case should not get hot enough to burn your fingers. The case only needs to show some level of discolouration and not turn cherry red - this would be way too hot for the brass (and fingers).

The third involves the use of temperature sensitive crayons or lacquers (used in welding) and holding the case in a slow speed drill, but only to rotate it for even coverage. The crayons or lacquers change colour at the right temperature.

I can't go into details for risk of breach of copyright, besides, he's a good guy and I don't want to upset him either.

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Marrakai
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #249570 - 26/06/14 08:35 PM

Quote:

I can't go into details for risk of breach of copyright, besides, he's a good guy and I don't want to upset him either.


LMFAO!!!!

Wrighty would hardly claim to own the intellectual property related to case-neck annealing!

Hilarious!

Plenty of web info and Youtube clips, and every reloading book worth reading has a chapter on the subject.....

At an average of four to six bucks a case for most of the more interesting stuff we reload, regular neck-annealing is at the very least a sensible recommendation.
Mandatory IMHO.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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AfricanBigGameTrails
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Reged: 15/06/14
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: Marrakai]
      #249658 - 28/06/14 09:21 PM

Thanks Guys,

I appreciate all the input and info.
I will defiantly be looking into and researching annealing.

I think I will also shoot off this batch of "bad" S&B ammo then bin those cases, and I'll see if I can buy some brand new, unprimed cases, perhaps from Hornady if they offer 9,3x74R's.

Many thanks,

Pete.

--------------------
Walk quietly, but carry a big stick!

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: DarylS]
      #252095 - 14/08/14 04:03 AM

Quote:

They are typical of brittle brass situation, nothing more.





Absolutely! After several years most necked factory ammo becomes brittle. In most cases the bottle necked brass was annealed at the factory and because of that becomes brittle over time. In double rifles there will always be microscopic difference in the chambers. If the chamber in the bottom barrel is slightly looser in the throat area it may be just enough to let the neck expand slightly. That will cause the cracks like the ones you are experiencing.

Just buy some new ammo and I suspect there will be no cracks from the bottom barrel.
................................................

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
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DarylS
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Re: Double trouble - chamber is cracking case necks. [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #252098 - 14/08/14 05:15 AM

I do not like shooting ammo that will crack the necks when fired. The reason is that hot gasses will pass through the crack and can burn the neck of the chamber. If it happens too much, this burning can remove metal - in really bad neck splitting occurrences. If there is a crack, the case cannot protect the chamber neck.

Pull the bullets, dump the powder - de-prime and anneal - that is what I would do.

Salvaging the bullets and cases is important if you want to reload at some point.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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