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pacecars
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Reged: 25/09/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida, USA
Rail mounted scopes
      #248068 - 28/05/14 10:32 PM

In my quest for a scope with either a German #1 or #4 reticle I keep coming across great deals on scopes that have rails attached. Is there an adapter or any way to mount them on a Redfield style base? Are they strictly for claw mounts? Can the rail be removed from the scope easily?

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Lutz
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Reged: 06/05/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Germany, Brandenburg
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: pacecars]
      #248073 - 28/05/14 11:20 PM

I dont't know if there is an adapter. But normaly scopes with rails are designed for drop barrel guns. The rail can't be removed easily. It is a work for a gunsmith.
Claw mounts are nice but very expensive. Today many people use pivot mounts. They are also made for scopes with rails.
But...Zeiss scopes (or something similar, if there is one) are also available without rails.

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Sville
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Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: Lutz]
      #248084 - 29/05/14 03:35 AM

If you have a Blaser a rail will give you a lower mount, I think nearly all german scopes you could buy with rails. Nice with claw mounts or maybe those that have specific mounts like Blaser or maybe Mauser m03, otherwise I would buy without rails. /S

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Sville
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Reged: 23/03/10
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Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: pacecars]
      #248086 - 29/05/14 03:38 AM

Quote:

Can the rail be removed from the scope easily?


I suppose this is the question. If you have a claw mount or a Blaser yes, otherwise I think no.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: pacecars]
      #248094 - 29/05/14 04:18 AM

Quote:

In my quest for a scope with either a German #1 or #4 reticle I keep coming across great deals on scopes that have rails attached.



I have a number of scopes with #1 and #4 reticles and none of these have rails. The rail scopes did not seem cheaper either. Perhaps they are because you are in the USA where they are less common than in Europe and harder to sell?

I think it would be cheaper to buy a rail-less scope than to buy one with a rail and have it removed. Cosmetics alone might make it unsightly afterwards.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: NitroX]
      #248096 - 29/05/14 04:47 AM

You have to take into account that maost German rail-less scopes have tube Diameters of 26 mm = 1.024" instead of 1" = 25.4mm, so you need slightly larger rings.

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pacecars
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Reged: 25/09/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Tallahassee, Florida, USA
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: kuduae]
      #248104 - 29/05/14 07:25 AM

I was curious because of the prices that are relatively low in the US for Zeiss and other quality scopes that have rails. If there was an easy way to adapt them it would be great but it looks like the best route would be with a claw mount which costs more than the scopes. I will stick with the plain 1 inch tube versions for my M-S.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: pacecars]
      #248127 - 29/05/14 05:44 PM

Quote:

I was curious because of the prices that are relatively low in the US for Zeiss and other quality scopes that have rails. If there was an easy way to adapt them it would be great but it looks like the best route would be with a claw mount which costs more than the scopes. I will stick with the plain 1 inch tube versions for my M-S.



When staying in Germany with a friend who owned quite few very nice guns and plenty of scopes he got me to mount Weaver bases on a few of his rifles as he had come to see the real benefits of low and securely mounted scopes when hunting out here in NZ. As an aside, he also came to see the benefits of good crisp single triggers instead of some of the complex and fiddly double trigger mechanisms that prevail in Europe on many firearms.

To go with his low Weaver rings (the steel strap type) which in earlier years were also made in 26mm tube size, he wanted to use a couple of his expensive rail scopes. We had no access to a mill or lathe so did the aluminium rail removal by use of a coarse file after carefully checking eye relief and scope position and then only removing enough of the rail at each point of ring attachment.

After quite a time sitting in his little cottage in the Black Forest filing away at the rail and sanding to a smooth finish, careful not to touch the scope tube, the deed was done and touched up with a application of matt black paint.

Mounted low in Weaver rings the scopes looked made for the job and he was most happy with our little but careful butchery of his rail scopes.

So if you have a favourite railed scope and want to change to another ring style, it can be done and a lot of the rail left so in the future the 'old' mount system could probably still be used. Just use a lathe or mill to be a bit more professional than we were

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: pacecars]
      #248149 - 30/05/14 08:02 AM

Here is an example of a scope mounted using an EAW Hebelschwenkmontage (lever actuated rotary scope mount). It operates on the same principle as the Redfield, Buehler and Leupold rotary dovetail mounts, with the front part of the mount fitting into a recess in the base, which is oriented 90 degrees from the long axis of the rifle and is fastened to the receiver ring. The scope is then rotated 90 degrees to where the rear part of the mount locks into a base mounted on the bridge of the rifle.

As you can see, the scope is mounted as low as the unaltered bolt handle will allow. It also has provision for windage adjustment in the rear part of the mount, which is essential since the German scope has no such provision internally. (Kuduae gets credit for the photo.)



Scopes with rails are usually made with light weight alloy tubes and the rails are intended to stiffen the tubes against the force required to twist or latch the scopes into position. Removing them will increase the possibility of damage.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: xausa]
      #248232 - 31/05/14 07:22 AM

Keep in mind that, the purpose of using rails is to remove all that force and stress from around the glass optic. That's a good thing. In terms of scope height, this system developed when Mauser 98's had swing safeties and the scope needed to be high enough to allow the safety to swing through it's arc. Also, if you look at older Germanic rifles, there is often a see-through under the scope, so you can use the open sights with the scope in place. This is from an era when scopes were not as reliable, and if they were fogged up, you had a 'Plan-B'. Also, on combination rifle/shotguns, you didn't have to use the scope to shoot the shotgun barrel - especially if the fox or other critter was too close to be in sharp focus in the scope, or perhaps so close that the scope was actually aiming above it. Also, the scope mount often had the windage adjustment built into it, there being none on the scope.

Some of these designs have been superseded by more modern developments, such as side or tang safeties that allow a lower mounting position. Modern rail scopes have a choice of different styles of rails for lower mounting, for this reason. So you can have the best of both worlds.

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dan_oz
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Reged: 04/09/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Australia
Re: Rail mounted scopes [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #258941 - 11/01/15 05:03 PM

FWIW EAW catalogues "roll-off" mounts to connect rail scopes to dovetailed receivers, as well as mounts complete with screw-on dovetail-type bases to suit a range of rifles which don't have dovetails. See http://www.eaw.de/en/products/slide-on-roll-off-mounts/complete-mounts-slide.html

There may well be others who make these too.

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