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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Rell
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400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser"
      #244341 - 24/03/14 11:21 PM

I might have just done something very foolish. My new acquisition is a "Flagged Mauser" in 400 Whelen. Not sure what flagged means?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=402758680

I've been reading Elmer Keith's Gun Notes and he mentioned the 400 Whelen several times. I just love the old stories of ridding around for 2 or 3 months in the Yukon on a shooting holiday and it seems a Whelen always factored in somewhere.

I found 400 Whelen basic brass on MidwayUSA and I assume I need to do a chamber cast and figure out what dies to order or get made. Other then this I realize I'm kind of in over my head. Do I need 300gr .411 bullets for the 405 Winchester or can I use 450-400 400gr bullets. Where do I get reliable load data?

Any guidance would be welcomed, I'm over my skies on this one.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Marrakai
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Rell]
      #244344 - 25/03/14 12:08 AM

Couldn't see a reference to "flagged Mauser" but the Mauser banner is the factory stamp shown on the receiver-ring in Pic No.6. Means original commercial Mauser action, rather than ex-mil. Nice thing, congratulations!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Ruger_450
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Marrakai]
      #244353 - 25/03/14 02:48 AM

My 400 Whelen is a deluxe R.F. Sedgley Springfield with the Griffin and Howe chamber (very important).

The shortcut to all the 400 Whelen knowledge is to buy the book WILDCAT CARTRIDGES (which,in the interest of full disclosure, I published) by Fred Zeglin. It has a whole chapter written by the late Mike Petrov on the 400 Whelen featuring loading data, new rifles etc. etc. Available from Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TT5OBO



That's my 400 on the cover, left side.

It is very accurate and took this Elk @250 yards with the now (sadly) discontinued Barnes 325 gr X. (I have a hoard)
The lighter TSX also works well as does the 400gr Woodleigh. It is also a great cast bullet gun as you are right at the velocity crossover point from cast to jacketed bullets.



A Banner Mauser is a great find, do you know who built it ? Could you share some pics ? If you ever decide to sell it, put me first.

Slug the bore and cast the chamber. Typically any .410-.411 bullet will work. The quick way to get started is to buy a set of 41 S&W dies from Lee. If you can get the basic brass run it into the FL sizing die until it will chamber, check OAL, prime, add 55 gr of 3031/4895/4064 and a 41 caliber jacket revolver bullet seated backwards just deep enough to firmly engage the lands. Pull the trigger and you'll have a case fireformed to your chamber. (They are remarkably accurate at 50 yards)

Check your cast and case against the G&H measurements in Petrov's chapter. IF you have a G&H chamber, you're good to go. If not and it's just an 06 necked up, I would get it recut to G&H specs. There are a ton of verions of the 400 W like the 400 Brown-Whelen, 411 Hawk and so on.

Once you know what you have go the "three fired case" route to the diemaker of your choice. Dare I say Lee makes as good custom dies as anyone, especially for a non-critical round like the 400 W.

Excellent purchase. With bullets you cast from scrap wheeleights, You can shoot it cheap as today's price for 22 rimfire.

Edited by Ruger_450 (25/03/14 03:14 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244355 - 25/03/14 03:21 AM

TKS for this thread. The .400 Whelen and .400 Whelen IMP have captured my attention since I read the first write-up on it that I saw, by Elmer K, of course. Since that time, I've been loading different wildcats & improved ctgs. for almost 40 years. My current .376/06IMP is a favourite.
Great stuff!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Tiagra
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Reged: 16/03/08
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Loc: Sechelt, British Columbia
Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: DarylS]
      #244370 - 25/03/14 09:14 AM

Perhaps Flaigs rather than flagged?

Flaigs was a custom gunshop in Pennsylvania circa 1950's.

--------------------
If It Doesn't Feed, It's Junk


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Rell
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Tiagra]
      #244377 - 25/03/14 12:52 PM

The Quality Cartridge web page tells me I have to ream the necks on the cylindrical brass after sizing.

"The .400 Whelen Basic is supplied as "Cylindrical". It is intended for use as a wildcatter's case to form many different .30-06 / .308 family widldcats from. The case neck will need to be reamed or turned after final forming."

I have had a few negative experiences inside neck reaming. I have a Forster trim gauge, can I get a neck reamer that will work, I can't seem to find one. Any recommendations for a tool/trimmer that will do this?

PS. I think flagged meant banner.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Rell]
      #244383 - 25/03/14 01:32 PM

Congratulations, and do post pictures when you receive your rifle.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244384 - 25/03/14 01:37 PM

Ruger_450,

That rifle has superb lines. Would you please post more pictures on a separate thread?

Thanks in advance, and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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xausa
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Rell]
      #244390 - 25/03/14 03:41 PM

Quote:

"The .400 Whelen Basic is supplied as "Cylindrical". It is intended for use as a wildcatter's case to form many different .30-06 / .308 family widldcats from. The case neck will need to be reamed or turned after final forming."




Outside neck turning is a more precise way of achieving uniform neck thickness. Forster makes the one I use. It can be used by hand with the Forster case trimmer set-up, or can be used with a drill press for mass production. However, the minimal case neck reduction required in forming .400 Whelen from cylindrical brass should not result in nearly as much increase in case neck thickening as sizing down to .30, .338. .358 or even .375. I would try sizing a case or two and measuring the neck thickness with a tubing micrometer before investing in neck turning equipment.


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DarylS
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: xausa]
      #244407 - 26/03/14 01:27 AM

Yes - as xausa says - form some brass, then check the neck wall thickness. I would formed a case and attmpt to chamber it. If it goes in easily, I'd load a bullet in the case and try to chamber it. Now, if resistance is felt on empty ctg., it will be from the neck area. Smoking or marking the neck with a felt pen should show if the necks are too thick or scraping while chambering.

I would not be too quick to ream or turn the necks - if not necessary. You really only want about .002" to .003" clearance between a loaded ctg. neck and the chamber neck walls. Some rifles, especially today, can have chamber necks up to .008" larger than the loaded ctg. neck.

Another method of checking. If the round chambers, then loading a moderate load and firing it then attempt to shove a new bullet into the fired case mouth will show if the necks were too thick - ie: if a bullet will not enter a fired case, then the necks need reaming or turning. Outside turning is the preferred method as it is more accurate - ie: you turn the necks concentrically around a mandrel - first removing the 'high sides' which is sometimes 'more' than enough.

Inside neck reaming will not make the neck walls concentric, as it merely removes metal from all the way around the inside neck. If the case necks are not of even thickness all the way around and they aren't, this neck thickness error will remain after they are inside reamed. Being .002" to .005" out of round is common.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ruger_450
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: xausa]
      #244412 - 26/03/14 02:54 AM

NO ! you do not need to turn or ream the necks by going from an 06 basic to a 400 Whelen. That is pure BS. Perhaps if making 25-05s (why would any one ?)

375 and 400 Whelen require NO modification of the case other than checking the OAL.

I have also made 375 and 400 H&H from Norma belted basics, no reaming or turning needed !

The key is correct fireforming as I outlined above.

Don't buy any dies for 400 Whelen until you are 100% sure of what you have. Once fireformed to the proper chamber (G&H) I have NEVER had to FL size a 400 Whelen. When shooting cast bullets I usually use the 41 S&W dies in my progressive press as they size the neck just fine, have the neck expander to ease seating and a crimp die if shooting heavy loaded hard cast bullets.

As Packard used to say: "Ask the man who owns one."

These were made from Norma Basic w/a 350 X bullet.



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Rell
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244643 - 30/03/14 09:39 AM

100% it's the .458 shoulder chamber.

I tried Lee and they are not taking custom orders, RCBS is a no go, CD4H will do it but it's 4 months out. Any other source?

I think I can run the 400 basic brass into my 450-400 sizer die and do a light load with Hornady 300 gr to form brass. I'd rather use the right dies if possible though.

Anyone have a used set for sale? Another source?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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mart
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Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Rell]
      #244647 - 30/03/14 12:57 PM

Rell,

I've done extensive work with the 400 Whelen over the last three years. I am using CH4D dies and both Qual Cart brass and Norma cylindrical 30-06 brass. I also fireformed some commercial and LC Match 30-06 brass using the Cream of Wheat method. It was a good way to get cases before I got my dies. I used a 41 Magnum die to neck size those fireformed cases prior to my CH4D dies arriving. RCBS will make the dies or at least they used to but they are 4 times the cost of the CH4D. I've been happy with the CH4D dies. The easiest way to make sure you get the right dies is to fireform a few cases then load them with a regular load using the 41 mag dies to neck size and as I did, a 458 Win mag seating die to seat the bullet. Fire these rounds and send three of the fired cases to CH4D. They catalog three variations of the 400 Whelen and will make sure you get the right one.

I have found H4895 to be the premier powder in the 400 Whelen though several other fellow 400 shooters have reported good success with TAC, H322, H335 and Reloader 10x. I have tried a lot of bullets in the 400 and just last week did the final work up on my loads with the Barnes 300 grain TSX and 62 grains of H4895. I am getting 2408 fps with that bullet. My favorite load uses the Woodleigh 400 grain round nose at 2150 with 58 grains of H4895. It's a tack driver and it really rolls caribou. I also have used the Hornady 400 RN with that load with good results. I have also found the Swift 350 grain A frame and North Fork 360 grain to be great shooters. The Hornady 300 grain FP and Spire points shoot very well but are so short they give feeding issues in my rifle, a left handed Winchester model 70. I tried the Hawk bullets in 300, 350 and 400 grains and got very inconsistent grouping with all but the 400 grain bullets. I also tried some of the old Barnes 300 and 350 grain X bullets. They shot well but that 350 X is in my opinion, too long a bullet for the case.

As for powders, anything slower than H4895 is going to give inadequate velocities. IMR 3031 works well with the 300 grain bullets buts is a bit on the fast side for the heavier bullets. I'd try to stay in the H4895 burn range.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with the 400 Whelen. It has become my favorite rifle. It is easy to shoot well. If you can handle a 35 Whelen or 375 H&H you'll have no trouble with the recoil of the 400. Mine only weighs 8.5 pounds and I shoot it a lot and I still have my retinas attached.

Good luck with your 400. You love it.

Mart

Here's a few pics of mine. Sorry their not that great.





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DarylS
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Rell]
      #244684 - 31/03/14 04:57 AM

p
Quote:

The Quality Cartridge web page tells me I have to ream the necks on the cylindrical brass after sizing.

"The .400 Whelen Basic is supplied as "Cylindrical". It is intended for use as a wildcatter's case to form many different .30-06 / .308 family wildcats from. The case neck will need to be reamed or turned after final forming."






This is why I posted below this post concerning reaming.

I do not know how thick cylindrical standard based brass happens to be as I've never seen one let alone measured it.

I've used .25/06, .270, .30/06 and .35 Whelen brass for my .375/06IMP. Due to the necking up ie: stretching process, this brass thins in the necks, it does not get thicker.

Brass only gets thicker when it is necked down. The different headstamps on the cases does not worry or bother me - the formed ctg. is obvious - it's a .375/06IMP, not a .25/06, .270, .30/06 or .35 Whelen. Your .400 Whelen will be even more obvious and will NEVER chamber in one of the original named rifle chambers.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: DarylS]
      #244687 - 31/03/14 05:41 AM

Elmer Keith once recommended making .400 Whelen brass from .30-06: Expand necks, load with a light load and fire form. In the late 1920s he used 300 gr .405 Winchester bullets for fireforming, but now I would use .41 handgun bullets. After fireforming he recommended neck sizing only to maintain shoulder and headspace. He never full length resized his cases after fireforming.

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mart
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: kuduae]
      #244695 - 31/03/14 08:06 AM

I only neck size after fireforming. In fact I neck size everything anymore. I get much better case life out of all my brass that way.

Mart


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DarylS
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: mart]
      #244731 - 01/04/14 02:24 AM

Same here, Mart - neck or partial FL sizing only - for everything I load for. I use a set of .375 Styer (larger body diameter) dies for my .375/06IMP loading - only sizing most of the neck. Prior to getting the Styer dies, I used a neck bored .330 Win mag. die for this. Hornady Styer set is really nice, in comparison to my altered dies.

A Hornady .375 Styer die, bored out would make a neck sizer for your .400 Whelen IMP. Normal Ackley IMP shoulders are .454". My .375, made with non-standard Ackley reamer, has a .460" shoulder. I neck .30/06 or .35 Whelen brass straight, then neck size to set a shoulder for fireforming. Even though they are set for a crush fit, I seat the FF load's bullet out to hit the lands in the throat for perfectly formed cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ruger_450
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: kuduae]
      #244813 - 02/04/14 07:00 AM

Elmer did not have Qual or Norma basic brass. Cases for from 06' usually come up a bit short in the G&H chamber.

DON'T ream or neck turn them PERIOD.


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DarylS
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Ruger_450]
      #244821 - 02/04/14 08:21 AM

We ALL know what Elmer used - that was not asked.

This is what the brass supplier said about the brass they sold or recommended for the .400 Whelen.

"The .400 Whelen Basic is supplied as "Cylindrical". It is intended for use as a wildcatter's case to form many different .30-06 / .308 family wildcats from. The case neck will need to be reamed or turned after final forming."

That is why I addressed the turning and reaming question in the manner I did.

If this SUPPLIED brass has thick necks, they will get thicker when necked down - will they be too thick? That remains to be proven.

if they are used for the .308 family, they will indeed need turning or reaming.

I also addressed why turning was the preferred method over reaming.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ruger_450
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: DarylS]
      #244824 - 02/04/14 08:59 AM

Daryl, Qual was doing a CYA in case anyone went down to a 30 caliber or below. Then I would agree with them BUT since I have a 400 Whelen AND have made cases from Norma/ Qual basics as well as Rem 35 Whelens, 9.3x62 (both too short) AND have shot probably 500 rounds thru my 400 (95% cast bullets that mike .412), you might consider I have quite a lot of experience with the cartridge.

All things being equal, the smaller the hole you end up with the more critical the neck thickness.
My 22-06 Sedgley has a very tight neck and will only work properly (new bullet will drop in fired empty case) with WW 25-06 brass (no nickel plated) cases.

The key is having the correct G&H Col. Whelen spec chamber (as covered in Pertov's chapter on the cartridge in WILDCATS bt Zeglin).

Once there, just follow my instructions in this thread and you'll have a fine 100% dependable rig.

It is a simple cartridge to load, is very accurate and has as much thump as a 450/400.


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Rell
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Ruger_450]
      #245166 - 07/04/14 01:45 AM

My 400 Whelen arrived. The quarter rib was nocked off and it looks like it had been epoxied back on. Pretty disappointing. The dealer seems nice enough he apologized and is refunding me $300 of the $900 dollar purchase price.

I know need to find some one who can reattach the quarter rib and I guess refinish the rifle. The LOP is 13.25 inches so I need to get it to a lop of 14.75. Not sure if it should have a block and pad added or get restocked?

I bought this because it was a deal and I'm not inclined to put $1,500+ into the rifle but ....

Does anyone know a good gunsmith in the states that would restock it, do something with the quarter rib and reblue at a reasonable price? Not trying to turn this into a best rifle just a working thumper.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Ruger_450
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Re: 400 Whelen "Flagged Mauser" [Re: Rell]
      #245175 - 07/04/14 05:23 AM

The rib needs to be resoldered and probably knocked off because the gun was hot blued.

Turnbull can resolder the rib and rust blue it.

Restocking is not cheap. 14.75" is a very long pull. If the stock is nice, I'd go with a Kick Ez pad which comes as thick as 1 & 3/8". They work very well.

http://www.recoil-pads.com/servlet/the-5/Kick-EEZ-Magnum-recoil/Detail

I'm sure Turnbull could also add the pad.

It's not that hard a kicker. Mine has a Steel checkered trapdoor buttplate.

If you wish to restock, look at Richards Micro fit Old Classic model in English Walnut.

http://www.rifle-stocks.com/oldclassic.htm

How about some photos ?


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