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From: Anthropoid (Original Message) Sent: 11/10/2002 2:49 AM
Are shotgun slugs capable of taking all of the big five?

I know if you had a choice you might well pick something else, but I'd like your opinions on how well the slug would stack up against the largest and most dangerous game on the planet.

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From: Honey badger Sent: 11/10/2002 11:00 AM
Hello, Anthropoid, old boy. Didn't know you were a member here.

There are people on this site who know a great deal more about this than me, especially in practical terms. There may be modern high performance slugs that I don't know about but, from what I know about the ammunition makeup of standard slugs - no, no, no, no and no. (That's all five covered). All the slugs I've seen have been made of lead antimony or something similar (quite soft) and many are of quite light construction. I'd always thought that they were solid lumps, but not always so. They are light for calibre and often also short for calibre. Plus, there is not a great deal of propellant behind the slug, especially when compared to a Nitro Express rifle cartridge. This all has serious effects in terms of striking energy and penetration.

You will often read about buckshot being effective against lion, but from what I've read, I'm not convinced. On the other hand, there was a type of heavily constructed shotgun that had the last three or so inches of the barrels rifled. These were called Paradox guns (originally a trademark of Purdey, who initially developed them). I have a paradox round in my collection and although of 12 bore, it is quite unlike a normal shotgun cartridge. In fact, imagine a .720 rifle round, with a straight sided case and a huge conical FMJ bullet: There you have it.

Off on another tangent, before the introduction of modern Nitro Express cartridges the most common weapons used against elephant and the like were black powder rifles of 8, 10 and 12 bore, usually with only two rifle grooves in the barrel and firing huge conical lead bullets. I've read accounts where dozens of bullets were needed to kill one animal. So from all that, you can probably guess that I wouldn't recommend shotgun slugs.

Having said all of that, I would love to hear from any of our more experienced members who do use slugs.

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From: Anthropoid Sent: 11/10/2002 12:12 PM
I'm stalking you old boy

Well, I did suspect that shotgun slugs were not de rigueur among the illuminati, but my interest was aroused some time ago when I was shown a 12bore slug which had the appearance of having been made from a number of brass washers encased in plastic.
Possibly good on large game thought I. Well never having fired at anything larger than a rabbit, I thought I would pose the question to those who have.
The 12 gauge ( I'm going native :-) slug is supposed to be plenty big medicine on bears, so why not on other toothy things like lions? and with perhaps hardened cores
why not....well anything?

Thank you for your response HB, I think you may have already provided the definitive answer. We shall see.

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From: Anthropoid Sent: 11/10/2002 10:49 PM
http://www.sauvestre.tm.fr/html/accueil.htm These slugs look interesting

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From: Anthropoid Sent: 11/10/2002 10:54 PM
http://www.sauvestre.tm.fr/index_us.htm Sorry....This is the correct link.

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From: Honey badger Sent: 11/10/2002 11:25 PM
I've seen those sauvestre slugs before and not known what they actually
were. I think they would be a different proposition entirely. They're
quite interesting from a technical point of view: discarding sabot a la tank
ammunition and if I've read it right, the cartridge uses a high-low pressure
system, which is also employed with 40 mm grenade launchers.

I've just read the shotguns chapter in Craig Boddington's 'Safari Rifles'.
He tells of someone using a brenneke slug on buffalo and of PHs using
buckshot on cats, so there you go - what do I know?

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From: Nitro Sent: 11/11/2002 2:50 PM
Anthropoid

Welcome to NitroExpress.com Good to see you aboard.

Shotguns and shotgun slugs on the Big 5?

Firstly I have never used a shotgun on any of the Big Five, so what I say here is just conjecture. The most usual use of a shotgun for Big Five is on following up wounded leopard. From what I gather most Professional Hunters who do not have access to a DOUBLE RIFLE in a suitable calibre will use a shotgun, either a semi-auto or a side by side. All three PHs I have used to date used weither 12 gauge or 10 gauge semi-auto shotguns for this purpose.

I think that this is due to one the high cost of double rifles and a lot of PHs are not well heeled, doing it for the lifestyle rather than the $$$. Their dangerous game rifle is usually a bolt action in 375 to 458 and due to the usual close quarters of a leopard charge they choose a firearm which can fire a second shot quickly and is hard hitting at close quarters. Some use heavy buck shot but most, I believe, use slugs. The buck shot only being effective at very close range.

For follow-up on Lion a big bore rifle calibre is universally used. Pierre van Wyk, whom I just hunted with, carried a 500 A-square specifically for lion in the high grass of Tanzania. He wanted a cartridge which would knock them down with less than perfect shooting.

In most jurisdictions a 9.3mm or .375 is the legal minimum for cape buffalo, rhino and elephant. Hunting them with a shotgun and slugs wouldn't be very sensible.

This isn't to say it can't be done and hasn't been done. I'm sure a lot of shotguns have killed all of the Big Five in the last 150 years especially in emergency situations. But given the high price to hunt these sorts of game today and its level of effectiveness, a good bolt action in a suitable calibre is better value.

That's my opinion anyway. How a slug would "stack up against the largest and most dangerous game on the planet?" Probably the game would flatten you flatter than stacked pancakes!

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From: Nitro Sent: 11/11/2002 2:56 PM
HB

I think the Paradoxes were mainly used for a mixture of bird hunting, shooting small bucks, plus for the occasional shot at larger antelope. Good meat gathering firearms.

I agree with you that a hunter that was after say elephant etc for ivory usually carried one of the huge rifled cannons such a single shot 4 and 8 bores, often more than one. At least his gunbearers carried them until the shooting was done. After shooting off his first rifle and when the elephant charged, he would turn around and ask for the second one. Where was his gun bearer? Up a tree! Those were the days.

The Nitro Express cartridges heralded the end of the #-bore cartridges.

PS You have to tell us more about your collection. Sounds interesting.

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From: Honey badger Sent: 11/11/2002 6:01 PM
Nitro,

Sir Samuel Baker had a 2 bore rifle, firing explosive filled shells, and even that wasn't really enough gun with black powder. Plenty enough to fire though - the kick!

My collection is mostly inert items of explosive ordnance I've come across during the course of my work, but also includes inert small arms rounds, quite a few of which are big game rounds. One of our tasks in the UK was to prepare for disposal ammunition recovered by the police from various sources. You would be amazed at the variety and quantity of ammunition kicking about. I've got about a third of the Nitro Expresses, including a .600 and that paradox ball round. Unfortunately I've had to leave them all in the UK to avoid embuggerance with the Cyprus customs etc.

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From: gunner1 Sent: 11/13/2002 8:05 AM
Hi Anthropoid, Did I read that one post correctlly that some natives in your area are useing 12g. to hunt bear?Not what I would recamind if they are in big bear country I have seen 30-30 rounds bounce off of grizzly.Hey H.B. I never did get an answer to my question about your bristol shotgun.I would still like to see a picture of one if you can post it.(please excuse my spelling)

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From: Anthropoid Sent: 11/13/2002 2:53 PM
From: gunner1 Sent: 11/12/2002 9:35 PM
Hi Anthropoid, Did I read that one post correctlly that some natives in your area are useing 12g. to hunt bear?

Hi Gunner1.

No bears where I live friend....least ways not the last time I looked :-)

I'm in England old boy.

I was reading about it somewhere on the net, I'll try and find it for you.

P.S. You using squib loads in that 30-30 :-)

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From: Anthropoid Sent: 11/13/2002 10:45 PM
http://www.gnguns.com/bearattack.htm

Check this web-site out, it gives some information on what guns and ammo to use on bears.

Gunner1. You been there, done it, got the teeshirt, by the sound of things.....What do you recommend?
And can you tell us some more as to why you wouldn't recommend 12g slugs.

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From: gunner1 Sent: 11/14/2002 7:11 AM
I liv in the Rockies which is just about the last remaining habitat for the norh american grizzly.This bear is one of the largest land preditors outside of a few big cats.It has an extremally thick hide compaired to the common black bear.For it's size it is very fast.You would have to get to close for comfort with a shotgun even for a slug to be effective.That is why I wouldn't do it.For bear of any size I recamend 306. or heavier caliber.

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From: Anthropoid Sent: 11/14/2002 9:09 AM
That sounds like good advice Gunner. We have had a television programme over here on satellite called "When animals attack". That showed a man and a woman who had been attacked by a bear. The man had his scalp ripped off and the woman nearly lost an eye when the bear bit her head. Another story on TV was about plastic surgery which had a russian chap who had his face bit off by a bear, he was left with one eye and a hole where his mouth had been. I don't think you can have too much gun for bears.

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