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sauerdb
.224 member

Reged: 09/12/13
Posts: 14
Loc: Atlanta, GA

Calibre Identification Help
#241023 - 22/01/14 02:17 PM

I recently picked up a Charles Osborne single shot and the only information I have on the actual calibre is the "60" bore in the proof marks. The chamber looks like it's a straight wall case with little taper, about 2" to the rifling from what I can see.

I don't have anything to make a chamber cast with right now, but was wondering if this stood out to anyone for possible identification.

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1649
Loc: Finland

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: sauerdb]
#241030 - 22/01/14 04:47 PM

With Martini action, maybe ? It´s always so that good fotos helps to identify the caliber. By the way, have you measured the muzzle ?

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: Igorrock]
#241033 - 22/01/14 05:30 PM

Can you get a base/rim measurement?

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: AkMike]
#241040 - 23/01/14 12:37 AM

I don't know for sure what 60 bore translates to but it could be a .442 Long, sometimes called the 442 Rook or Kangaroo rifle.
Sounds like your chamber may be longer than that though

What exactly in caliber (bullet dia. in inches) is 60 bore? I can't find a good conversion chart.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: Huvius]
#241045 - 23/01/14 05:41 AM

Huvius - you were very close - 60 bore is exactly .427" according to my chart on pure lead ball sizing.

The chart runs from 1 to 180 bore and ws copied from.
The Los Angeles Silhouette Club web site. It might come up with a Google search.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member

Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: DarylS]
#241055 - 23/01/14 11:18 AM

Hi All,
I am very interested in this thread, as I am currently looking at an early side lever break action single shot rifle by R Johnson of Liverpool. It measures .429 diam and has 64 stamped on the underside of the barrel near the proof marks. The chamber is 3 1/4" long. The nearest I could come up with from my books is 400 x 3 1/4 Kynoch or 400 x 3" Purdey.
Rim diam is approx .537", Base diam is approx .495, Neck diam is approx .465".
A 410 shotshell fits and a 9.3 x 74R fits.
The serial number would appear to date it quite early at between 1860 and 1870.
Rifling is 5 groove with .100" wide lands and .200" grooves.
These measurements have been taken from a sulphur chamber cast.
Any help appreciated.
Regards
LesLeeSpeed

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: DarylS]
#241056 - 23/01/14 11:33 AM

Sauerdb - Is this the one from Mick Shepherd? I looked at it many times and was very tempted

The calibre is probably .430 Long Rifle, an early Rook/Kangaroo cartridge. There was also a .430 short pistol but this is unlikely in a rifle

I do not have any pics but dimensions are

Case length 1.040" Rim 0.501-.504" Rim Thickness 0.036" Base 0.450" Mouth 0.440 " Bullet 0.422-425"

O/A length 1.42" All these measurements may vary with induvidual manufacture

Loaded by Eley until 1914 at least

If you slug the bore with a 44/40 bullet of .427" If so, it should give you a base to work on, the heavier .427 pistol bullets in pure lead would probably be OK

[don't forget to "roll" the slug in the calipers/mike when measuring or you may get a completely wrong answer]!

If your chamber cast confirms this I am reasonably sure we/you can find a base case to work up (I have not checked yet so may be talking rubbish!)

Good luck

TH44

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: TH44]
#241059 - 23/01/14 12:11 PM

Les - Our posts overlapped!

You mention .429" Is this bore diameter? The 64 stamped next to the proofs will be bore size, Could not find my chart so I calculated it at .417"

How long is the case? More likely it is the .400 2 1/4" Kynoch, not the Purdey, but if it is long enough the .400 Boxer 3 1/4" has quite a wide variation in measurements that are within yours

If it is a side lever it will almost certainly have been made in the Birmingham Trade and retailed by your maker/retailer, ALL gunmakers did this including Purdey and H&H!

What makes you think it is early? Please post pics if you can, we will all be appreciative!

TH44

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: TH44]
#241063 - 23/01/14 02:09 PM

Looking in Hoyem's book, I see there is a .425 Webley 1-5/16" cartridge.
Sounds like a reasonable possibility.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member

Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: Huvius]
#241068 - 23/01/14 03:58 PM

Hi TH44,
Maybe I should start a separate thread, but I wont be able to post any photos for a while. It seemed a coincidence that the dimensions of two unknown calibres in two separate countries should be so similar.
The bore diameter is .417" as near as I could measure, and the groove diam was .429". My thoughts were 400 Boxer, which I think was an earlier version of the 400Kynoch.
My dating of the rifle Was done from "British Gunmakers Volume 2", however the street address on the barrel was not listed. The serial number puts it in the 1860's.
If I buy it I will then put up some photos.
This is the reference I used for "bore dimensions" http://www.fourten.org.uk/shotgunbores.html
They match up pretty well to the dimensions from the chamber casting.
Regards
LesLeeSpeed

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
#241074 - 24/01/14 12:32 AM

Quote:

Hi All,
I am very interested in this thread, as I am currently looking at an early side lever break action single shot rifle by R Johnson of Liverpool. It measures .429 diam and has 64 stamped on the underside of the barrel near the proof marks. The chamber is 3 1/4" long. The nearest I could come up with from my books is 400 x 3 1/4 Kynoch or 400 x 3" Purdey.
Rim diam is approx .537", Base diam is approx .495, Neck diam is approx .465".
A 410 shotshell fits and a 9.3 x 74R fits.
The serial number would appear to date it quite early at between 1860 and 1870.
Rifling is 5 groove with .100" wide lands and .200" grooves.
These measurements have been taken from a sulphur chamber cast.
Any help appreciated.
Regards
LesLeeSpeed

Are there any European proofs on the gun?
Sounds a lot like the 10.75X65R Collath from the measurements.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member

Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Calibre Identification Help [Re: Huvius]
#241096 - 24/01/14 09:42 AM

Hi Huvius,
No European proof marks, all Birmingham.
I wont see the rifle again for a couple of months, so can't take any photos.
Regards
LesLeeSpeed

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