Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Ivory? Grip Container Cap 1908 M-S

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Ivory? Grip Container Cap 1908 M-S
      #239975 - 01/01/14 08:35 AM

I thought some of you might be interested in this....I just picked up a relatively cheap M-S 1908 (single trigger, takedown) as a parts rifle. However, its growing on me, and I may keep it together and just shoot/hunt it as is. It is British (London) proofed and has this nice little apparently handmade grip cap that turns and locks over the grip cap container (which happily did contain another front sight). I am wondering if its made from ivory. It looks like it, but I don't know how to confirm that. Maybe its horn. I do know that I like it. Anyone have experience with these grip cap containers and also maybe know how to tell what the cap is made from?

It also came with a nice pop up wrist receiver sight in excellent cond.

If I decide to make it a shooter, I'll have to figure out how to make some ammo because I have none on hand. My only other 1908 is a fullstock 7x57.









Edited by rpeck (01/01/14 09:06 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1649
Loc: Finland
Re: Ivory? Grip Container Cap 1908 M-S [Re: rpeck]
      #239978 - 01/01/14 09:17 AM

Quote:

I'll have to figure out how to make some ammo because I have none on hand.

8x56 MS shell is very near of 8x57 IS so using suitable tools the case making isnīt any big problem.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
A10ACN
.300 member


Reged: 30/01/05
Posts: 198
Loc: USA
Re: Ivory? Grip Container Cap 1908 M-S [Re: Igorrock]
      #240006 - 01/01/14 09:54 PM

Can't tell just by pics but it appears to be bone due to the rough, discolored area on the side. That doesn't make it any less neat and it could very well be ivory. If you have a piece of real ivory and a piece of bone, you could do the hot pin test and compare. Neat rifle, I say clean it up and use it, they are getting hard to find in any condition.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Ivory? Grip Container Cap 1908 M-S [Re: A10ACN]
      #240012 - 01/01/14 10:33 PM

The factory produced them with this style of grip cap, (and folding sight), but with a black hard rubber style cap on the end. Someone has modified it, I would imagine. The rifle would have been first proofed in Vienna and then reproofed in England. NPv means Nitro-proof Vienna. The Austrian proofs are probably mostly hidden inside the stock mortice along with the year of manufacture. Something like 656.23 will mean the 656th rifle proofed in Vienna in 1923, for example.

Ammo making can be straight forward, using 8x57 rimless. However the base can be a little large for the Mannlicher chamber with some brands of ammo and some chambers. These base diameters vary between makers, so if there's a problem, a .001" vernier will help sort out suitable brass. Don't use 8x57 Mauser loading data, of course.

The second sight should be a few thousands of an inch different in height to the one on the rifle, so if you find the rifle not shooting to point of aim, an exchange may help. The vernier will suggest to you the amount of change; just divide the target distance, (presumably 100yds = 3,600 inches), by the distance between the front and rear sight in inches, so you then have a ratio. Multiply the difference in sight height between the first and second sight by this ratio and you should pick if it's going to raise the point of impact at the target end by the desired amount. The tang sight also has 2 settings so you have options for longer range as well.

Woodleigh make a nice round-nose that apparently suits this rifle, (i.e. they feed well and being the right weight, they regulate to the rifles sights). I found and loaded some but I haven't used them yet. That might change soon.

BTW, my gunsmith filed down the face of one of these sights. He did a great job, so mirror like that on a fine-bright day I couldn't see it against the target. So I blackened it with smoke from a small spirit lamp. Also, I use a small diopter sight sold by Merit that sticks on my shooting glasses and helps bring sights and targets into good focus for older eyes. If you want really tight groups with open sights, it's very helpful.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW
Re: Ivory? Grip Container Cap 1908 M-S [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240022 - 02/01/14 02:07 AM

Because I am just getting started in reloading, I cannot speak to using other brass and suitable tools. I do know that these people make the brass and will do custom headstamps, if you're so inclined. Their website says that their product is carried by Grafs and Midway, but not sure at all if either stocks the full line.

http://www.qual-cart.com

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Austrian Proofs [Re: DonZ]
      #240026 - 02/01/14 06:39 AM

Re: "The rifle would have been first proofed in Vienna and then reproofed in England. NPv means Nitro-proof Vienna. The Austrian proofs are probably mostly hidden inside the stock mortice along with the year of manufacture. Something like 656.23 will mean the 656th rifle proofed in Vienna in 1923, for example."

The only marks on the metal inside the stock are a +1,a V in a circle and a T in a circle, all three on the barrel and the serial numer (213), -1, a T in a circle and a very small K in a circle (double stamped one on top the other)on the action itself.

Could the V in the circle be a Vienna proof mark?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240099 - 03/01/14 06:53 PM

The V with a crown above, in your photo, is a view mark from the London proof house between 1637 - 1955. From 1925 to 1955 the V seems to have been put inside a circle if it was a view mark for foreign arms. This suggests your rifle may have been proofed in the UK before 1925. After that date, they were also marked, "NOT ENGLISH MAKE", from 1925 to 1955. Yours seems to be marked NITRO PROOF, (it's a bit out of focus). Again this suggests pre 1925.

Looking at my take-down, identical to yours in the photo: there's an NPv visible above the stockline and another below it. The N and the P are sort of joined together, not separate letters. This Austrian mark was used for smokeless powder arms after 1899. So I'm surprized it's not there on your rifle.

Your rifle seems to be marked M1908 on the top of the receiver which is the model and also the introduction date for the 8x56 MS that this model was made for. If it's M19** anything else, let me know.

Mine is also marked C9,5 under the stock line meaning it's a 9,5x57 MS and I'd expect yours to be marked C8,0 or C8,2 or something like that. The number that I referred to previously, the proof date for Vienna, with the two digit year after a dot, is also below my stock line.

I'm not sure about the T & K. A few more photos would be handy. The type of crown, lion, letters etc, helps narrow things down. It's always possible that you've had a replacement stock at some time, but let's not assume just yet.

This model was called the "English Take Down" model, notwithstanding that it was made in Austria. The idea was, that you could take barrel and action from the stock and they'd still be a single unit, not prone to the sorts of wear that occurred when a barrel separated from the action on other take-down patents. The separated barrel and stock then fit inside a handy case and was ideal for transport, for instance, on a train if you were off to Scotland.

My full-stocked 8x56 MS, BTW, is quite accurate and easy to load for. I hope you can enjoy shooting yours one day. There is a US-based Mannlicher Collectors Association and they might be worth making contact with for help with ammo and etc.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240100 - 03/01/14 06:58 PM

Sorry, I meant replacement barrel, not stock. Those photos will help.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240108 - 04/01/14 03:27 AM

Here are images of the under stock proof marks. As you can see, there aren't very many. Nothing like the numerous marks on my other 1908. The receiver ring is marked like a standard 1908.

The serial number appears on barrel, action and bolt.

Many years ago I was a member of US based Mannlicher Collectors Assoc., but they seem to be in hibernation at the present time. That is why I'm on this forum







.

Edited by rpeck (04/01/14 09:58 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240122 - 04/01/14 09:52 AM

I just noticed one more difference between this rifle and my other 1908 (a FS Carbine in 7x57). The carbine action has the normal "Made in Austria" stamp just above the word PATENT. The British proofed rifle has nothing there. Stangely enough, I had never noticed this before. (The stampings on the left side of the action, "Steyr, etc." are the same.) See photos:



Edited by rpeck (04/01/14 09:56 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240202 - 05/01/14 04:27 PM

Regarding the "Made in Austria", my 9x56 M-Sch was made in 1920 and it doesn't have this marking either. Later rifles I checked, (made 1925 and after) do. So I suppose at some stage around those years "Made in Austria" was added on.

If the same style "213" number appears on bolt, receiver and barrel, then surely they're all factory fitted and original. Looking at my 9x56 M-Sch., the NPv marking appears just below the British N P mark with the hand-held cutlass above it, (which is what seems to be in your photo too), just on the stock line, (LH side). Why NPv isn't below this on yours is a mystery to me.

Apparently, according to Nonte's Cartridge Conversions, you can use 8x57 Mauser dies to make this case, just lower the die further until the bolt will close on the case. I've heard of people taking some metal off the shellholder to achieve this. In that way the die is still OK to use with 8x57 Mauser cases. If you modify a Mauser die, it might be an idea to mark it to show the modification was made. I mention this in case the cost of a special custom 8x56 M. Sch. die set is putting you off reloading.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1649
Loc: Finland
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240205 - 05/01/14 05:23 PM

Some years ago I ordered 8x56 MS dies from CH4D and they didnīt cost enormous. If you look carefully 8x56 MS case measurements you could notice that 8x57 IS case head is a tad bigger than 8x56`s. So if you use those cases you maybe should trim them. But it depends om...

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Igorrock]
      #240217 - 06/01/14 02:05 AM

The "213" appears on bolt, action, barrel AND inside the stock. So its all original.

I have a chace to get some original 8x56 MS factory loaded ammo...so I will likely have original brass after shooting them. I would like to reload for it and will be looking into this. What sort of bullet do you recommend?

Thank you all for your helpful technical information on this rifle.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240268 - 07/01/14 05:34 PM

"Original brass" such as Kynoch will probably have Berdan primer flash holes and is not straight forward to reload. Can be done, I've done it, but getting the old primers out and finding the right size replacement is the issue. A lot easier to use 8x57 Mauser and modify them. If you order FL dies from CH, they make a good product at a fair price but be sue to say it's for an 8x56 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, not an 8x56 Mannlicher. They're 2 different cartridges, the latter is a military design.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240284 - 08/01/14 03:27 AM

This is WESTERN ammo, from the 1950's, 200 gr. Hopefully it will fit the rifle and be boxer primed.

Any idea why this rifle is missing any real Austrian proof marks?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240341 - 08/01/14 07:29 PM

It probably is Boxer primed. You may need to have it annealed before reloading as old brass can get a bit brittle in the neck. However, you might also get away with it. Is the brass clean or in need of a clean up? You can use a mix of vinegar, hot water, washing powder and a few other household ingredients that I'll need to look up, but it does a great job of getting back to clean metal. Once you've fired it, or pulled the bullets, that is.

I can only guess at why it doesn't have NPv such as, they simply overlooked this rifle - or rifles being exported directly at that time did not need it, (because they'd be proofed in the country exported to). However those are only guesses and the real answer might be different. They weren't, for instance, manufactured under licence in the UK.

With a bit of luck someone else might have an explanation.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240426 - 11/01/14 12:57 AM

I'm assuming they just didn't bother, knowing that it was being exported and that it would have to be re-proofed in England anyway...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240847 - 19/01/14 07:19 AM

Quote:

Re: "The rifle would have been first proofed in Vienna and then reproofed in England. NPv means Nitro-proof Vienna. The Austrian proofs are probably mostly hidden inside the stock mortice along with the year of manufacture. Something like 656.23 will mean the 656th rifle proofed in Vienna in 1923, for example."

The only marks on the metal inside the stock are a +1,a V in a circle and a T in a circle, all three on the barrel and the serial numer (213), -1, a T in a circle and a very small K in a circle (double stamped one on top the other)on the action itself.

Could the V in the circle be a Vienna proof mark?




Reading some Rifle magazine back issues I noticed in an article by Ken Waters titled Mannlicher-Schoenauer Model 1905 (March-April 2001, page 24-27,78) that he describes the proofmarks, both above and below the stock as being the very same as those on my "British" 1908....but didn't try to explain what the ones inside the stock might mean.

Edited by rpeck (19/01/14 07:21 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240857 - 19/01/14 01:38 PM

OK, got that, Rifle issue 194, page 27. I seem to recall the +1 and -1 were about headspace or some similar issue. The OESTERR. WAFFENFABR. GES. STEYR that Ken refers to simply means (in German), the Austrian Gun Manufacturing Company, (Ltd.) in the township of Steyr, Austria.

All firearms made in Austria around this period were, (I would have thought), proofed in Vienna with the exception of those made in Ferlach by the gun-making guild there which had it's own proof house. Steyr firearms would normally have all been proofed in Vienna. In the last 27 years or so, a proof tester from Vienna was loaned to the Steyr works to do their testing onsite as I saw his office and test-range when I was there. He was, unfortunately, at lunch.

If you have a quick look back at my past posts, you'll see that V with a crown above is a British proof mark; a View mark, meaning that the proof-master viewed it. A view mark is a standard mark used on most (all?) British firearms then, locally made or not.

The references I have are not clear what a V in a circle means but consider: "All foreign barrels and complete guns, not bearing proof marks acceptable to the British proof houses, must undergo proof, are then marked with the standard proof marks in a heavy circle...", (Wirnsberger & Steindler: The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, undated).

From the references I have here, old Gun Digests and etc., the only letter in a circle of this type and around this time used in Austria was "F" used for Foreign arms. There's nothing about a V in a circle in the 1959 Gun Digest article on Austrian Proofs, for instance.

One day, when I pull down several Steyr made arms that have no additional British marks applied, I'll see if there's a V in a circle, or if it only appears on imported firearms from Steyr with British marks. That would tend to answer the question and fill in the gaps.

That is, unless someone else can shed some light sooner...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240858 - 19/01/14 01:48 PM

Here's the info on the +1

(Referring to a 7x57 barrel marked, "-1"), "That mark is a barrel fitting notation and the absence of a "+1" on the underside of the barrel was evidence that the barrel was not original".

In Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Evolution of a sporting rifle, by Don L. Henry. Australian Shooters Journal, Nov. 1991, pgg 55-59; Dec., 1991 pgg 57-59 & pg 71.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #240934 - 21/01/14 03:50 AM

Whatever happened to Don L. Henry? Is he still around?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DORLEAC
.333 member


Reged: 22/01/12
Posts: 465
Loc: Perpignan, France
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: rpeck]
      #240935 - 21/01/14 04:24 AM


-1 on the receiver and +1 on the barrel, these marks mean that the last female thread of the receiver is reduced by 1/10 millimeter in diameter while the last male thread of the barrel is increased by 1/10 millimeter in diameter, resulting in a very close fitting at each end after full rotation.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rpeck



Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada
Re: Austrian Proofs [Re: DORLEAC]
      #240968 - 21/01/14 08:33 PM

Quote:


-1 on the receiver and +1 on the barrel, these marks mean that the last female thread of the receiver is reduced by 1/10 millimeter in diameter while the last male thread of the barrel is increased by 1/10 millimeter in diameter, resulting in a very close fitting at each end after full rotation.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com



Merci. Very interesting.
This is a beautiful rifle:
http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/projet/bergwald-stuzen-65x57/

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 52 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 9803

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved