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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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lancaster
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Exploded Muzzle Loader
      #236903 - 19/10/13 09:14 PM

found this just now for sale
seems to be old, something must have been wrong with the damascus barrel













http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4611481

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: lancaster]
      #236915 - 20/10/13 03:54 AM

Nasty - that eruption is typical for Damascus. Nothing too violent, just blown out the top - rarely creating a problem for the shooter. It appears to be an obstruction blow-out - perhaps double loaded on that side or perhaps a space developed between wads, shot and powder due to the hydraulic effect of sealing wads which pushed the load or part of the load back up an inch or so off the powder. I have also seen that blow caused by shoving the tubes into the water to shoot a fish (story given) and pulling a trigger. The gun in question was a Westely Richards double with Damascus barrels. W.W.Greener's 9th Edition of "The Gun and it's Development" also has just such a picture- a double with the tops of both breeches blown out.

It can happen - one must know what one is doing.
Unfortunate it happened to what appears to be a nice old German, Swiss or perhaps Austrian gun. (just a guess based on the wooden trigger guard and lock and/or makers name.

The 'break' must have happened a long time \before the gun's use was stopped. Note the 'extra' wear and patina around the nipple seat on the right barrel, showing more use of corrosive caps. That is just speculation, as there could be a number of reasons for what seems to be more 'wear' on the right side, ie: method of storage.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: DarylS]
      #236918 - 20/10/13 04:33 AM

" Nothing too violent, just blown out the top - rarely creating a problem for the shooter."

I think your ears will be ringing for a while


I think its remarkable that the gun was not geting a new barrel or they just scrap it sometimes . possible it happen when the new breechloader arive and and they dont wish to invest in the obsolete technology anymore.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (20/10/13 04:36 AM)


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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: lancaster]
      #236925 - 20/10/13 08:33 AM

Daryl:
I'd bet the trigger guard is buffalo horn, not wooden.
Bob


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fuhrmann
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: aromakr]
      #236926 - 20/10/13 09:00 AM

Daryl,

Mering lies in Bavaria, close to Augsburg.
That wooden hand and trigger guard is quite typical for the time and the area.

regards,
fuhrmann


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: fuhrmann]
      #236944 - 21/10/13 04:24 AM

Yes - horn - maybe.

Ringing ears is nothing serious. Blown-off hand, is somewhat more serious.

Even with one blown barrel, it's still a single barreled gun - no reason to scrap it, after all, that is one reason for having two instead of just one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: DarylS]
      #237459 - 04/11/13 01:41 PM

There are any number of explanations for the blowup. Wrong powder, steel was too brittle etc etc.
Could have happened 100 years ago with bulk shotgun or in 1970 with "replica powder" or who knows when with BP if the steel was at fault.

Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: Dphariss]
      #237474 - 05/11/13 03:08 AM

Yes- any time.

It does look just like the "Muzzles in the pond" shotgun that was displayed in the front window in the gun shop in London Ont. when I was a kid.

Greener's book has a similar 'drawing' of blown chambers, IIRC.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Marrakai
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: DarylS]
      #237485 - 05/11/13 12:31 PM

Notwithstanding William Wellington's unquestioned expertise, I have in my possession a shotgun that was immersed a few inches at the muzzles to shoot a barramundi.
The perpetrator was lucky the owner at the time was unarmed!
I was able to salvage a lovely 25-inch barreled double-slugger after the whistle-cocked muzzles were sawn off!
It has since killed many boars and even a full-grown buffalo cow with one shot!

My understanding of obstructions (including pond-water) is that the failure will occur when the charge meets the obstruction. Can't imagine anyone immersing the barrels full-length in the water! Barring forge-welding faults, I suspect a neatly blown chamber like that ML was either a double charge or a double load rammed home. A poorly-rammed load that moved up the barrel an inch or so under first-barrel recoil may also be a possibility?

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: Marrakai]
      #237976 - 19/11/13 02:39 AM

20 bore shells wedged into a 12 will give this 'chamber blowout' damage when the 12 bore shell is fired behind them.

The story given with the shotgun in London, was that the muzzles were shoved into the water while bird hunting at Point Pelee in South Western Ontario, in the 40's or 50's.

Perhaps that gun's and this one's Damascus barrel/s behave differently than modern steel with this sort of obstruction.

That they would blow at the obstruction makes perfect sense, though and I have seen other guns with muzzles blown off (single shots) because of immersion.

With this gun, constantly loading and only shooting the right barrel could easily allow the wads and shot column to move forward, then when the left barrel was fired, the wads and shot acted as a blockage. The somewhat thin Damascus breech let go where is wasn't supported (sitting on wood, which is common) - on top and to the left.

That forward moving projectile/s, due to forward movement in the unfired tube becoming an obstruction, is why we warn about using slugs (non-tight fitting like patched round balls) in a muzzleloading double barreled rifle. It is one of the very reasons slugs did not become popular for shooting large and dangerous game until fixed ammunition (breech loading) became useable. Reminds me of a bear hunt North of Terrace back in the 70's. Walking along, I just happened to glance at Tom's rifle. pointed & said, "I wouldn't shoot that if I were you". When he looked, the nose of the TC Maxi-ball was sticking out the muzzle of his rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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dpcd67
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: DarylS]
      #256432 - 09/11/14 06:09 AM

Probably done with smokeless powder 100 years ago when the stuff was new; people were confused by the term "powder" and thought it was all the same. My Grandfather told me of doing exactly that to a ML, in about 1910; blew the hell out of it, and didn't get hurt.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: dpcd67]
      #256436 - 09/11/14 06:53 AM

Very possible- then new King's semi-smokeless was loaded in shotshells by volume, same as BP, but produced higher pressures. That could do the old gun. In the black powder days, black powder was simply called gun or rifle, or musket powder, not black powder. The switch to smokeless caused many problems, injuries and sometimes deaths. Usually, at least in some areas of the West, hand loading was strongly repressed, or advised against due to the lack of consistency of the early powders. In many of them, each 'batch' loading for ctgs. had to be carefully developed as lot to lot differences were extreme. Greener's "The Gun (etc)" shows and mentions this.

In retrospect, considering the length of the blowout, seemingly slighlty longer than a normal powder charge, wads and shot would take up - & that the tube ahead of the blowout seems enlarged, ie; very slightly expanded, makes me hold to an obstruction theory. Of course, this is all theory not being able to speak to the person who was shooting it at the time. Would THEY know why- not likely, unless it was the shooting fish scenario?

Note also the expanded nose of the hammer, where the mouth of the hammer's fish nose is split further and blown forward from the gas coming out the "tube"(nipple). I do think a smokeless blowout, might also blow out the nipple, but being a reasonably good German gun, maybe not.

Due to what I see as damage to the barrel(expanded) forward of the blowout, along with hammer nose damage, I do think it was a BP load, that was not sitting on the powder, ie: an obstruction.

This can easily happen if well over sized proper wads were not used. This, and if the right barrel is fired and reloaded several times without the left barrel fired, can have the effect of loosening the wads in the left barrel(rear trigger). If they loosen enough, they can creep forward in the tube until there is an open space between the powder and the wads making an air space - when finally the left is fired -- BOOOOM - the shot charge and wadding (whatever it was - maybe wasp's nest) are then an obstruction, not a projectile which causes the breech to blow due air space between powder and load.

This creeping ahead problem is THE REASON NOT to use bullets in a muzzleloading double rifle, only tight fitting patched round balls. Always have your bullet or wads tight to the powder in a BP load - 1/10" compression, if possible, is about right.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Jim_C
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Re: Exploded Muzzle Loader [Re: DarylS]
      #256462 - 09/11/14 05:25 PM



Quote:

This can easily happen if well over sized proper wads were not used. This, and if the right barrel is fired and reloaded several times without the left barrel fired, can have the effect of loosening the wads in the left barrel(rear trigger). If they loosen enough, they can creep forward in the tube until there is an open space between the powder and the wads making an air space - when finally the left is fired -- BOOOOM - the shot charge and wadding (whatever it was - maybe wasp's nest) are then an obstruction, not a projectile which causes the breech to blow due air space between powder and load.




I think Daryl has it right here. As V. M. Starr wrote, in The Muzzle Loading Shotgun: Its Care and Use, "It is also good practice if it so happens that you fire one barrel several times without firing the other, to check with your ram rod and see if the shot wad is still tight in the unfired barrel, a half dozen shots or so will sometimes loosen the wad and let the shot roll out and spoil your shot right when you need it most." It will also, occasionally, blow out the barrel as shown in the picture.

As a kid, I visited Starr several times. He had a number of barrels that had been blown out in this fashion, as I recall each had the left barrel blown. He gave me one such gun to use to practice cutting a jug choke; the barrel was blown out about the same, and the hammer nose split a little worse. (The load in that barrel had been a ball seated between two wads, on top of about 5 drams of Fg. The ball had apparently moved forward, and blew the barrel when fired. Starr said this showed why you should be careful about to whom you loan your guns.)

In my experience, a couple of other suggestions seem unlikely. When a twist-steel barrel such as this fails due to flaws, it usually "unwinds" where it was wrapped around the mandrel in forging. Smokeless loads tend to shatter the barrel all around the circumference (except sometimes where the barrel is soldered or brazed to the adjacent barrel).


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