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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: larcher]
      #236971 - 22/10/13 11:57 AM

Here's the range report from the weekend: all groups shot at 100 yards - the thought being that if it works at 100 yards, 50 yards will be easy to figure out!

IMR 4350: 101.1 grains: 6" group. L + R oriented @ 7 o'clock @ 1 o'clock respectively. There are possibilities with this one. My thought is to try this powder with an increase of 2 grains, then 4 grains. My gut feel / expectation is that as I increase the charge, the barrels will cross before they meet on the horizontal plane.

IMR 4320: 86.1 grains: 12" group. No hope for this one at all, but I had to try a faster powder out of curiosity. L+ R barrel printed at 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock respectively.

RL 19: tried three loads: 104.8 grains; 107.4 grains; 110.4 grains. Groups started 6" apart L + R oriented @ 8 o'clock and 2 o'clock respectively. As the powder charge increased, the groups drew closer and shifted clockwise slightly. This powder seems to have the greatest possibilities of all if I can get enough crammed into the case. The issue I'm having with the Barnes TSX is that it is rather long for weight. I may need to seat out longer that I currently am doing. There was a distinct crushing of powder feeling when I seated the bullet over the 110 grain load. I have ordered a couple of boxes of Woodleighs, so that will also provide more room for play without seating so deeply or going with an overly long OAL.

I am starting slow and working up. The last sound I want to hear is the tinkling sound of bits of Heym raining down all around me lest I create a bad high pressure situation. I don't have the luxury of pressure testing gear at my disposal.

I have read Graeme Wright's book as well as Pierre Van Der Walt's book. The former has educated me as to how groups may shift with different charge weights, and the latter suggests to me that I really need to get the power/velocity up and then hold shots to maximum 75 yards on buffalo. Both books have provided very interesting references for charge weights. Combined with the Barnes reloading manual # 4, I am proceeding cautiously and hopefully somewhat scientifically in a seat of the pants sort of way. As far as when it comes to the hunt, common sense tells me to get close, and then get closer - the game is hunting, not sniping! If I can get over 2000 fps with a reasonable composite group, I'll be content - factory loads are clocking 2050 fps in my gun.


@ Larcher: you are absolutely right! The journey is half the fun. Once it regulates, then I'll need another challenge to frustrate myself with.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236973 - 22/10/13 12:23 PM


" Once it regulates, then I'll need another challenge to frustrate myself with."


then you can slow down and revisit things and see if you can find that sweet spot.

I must say, the way your groups move around surprises me.

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #236974 - 22/10/13 01:00 PM

I'd say 1850 - 2150 is plenty for buffalo.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: bonanza]
      #236982 - 22/10/13 03:12 PM

Postman,

I think you are on the wrong track here. Regulation of a double rifle involves finding a common point of impact for the left and the right barrel at a specific range. The key here is that each barrel recoils differently, what looks good at 100 yards rods won't look good at 50 yards as the trajectories for the two barrels can only intersect at one point. You are better off focusing on the yardage you are interested in.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27002
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #236994 - 23/10/13 02:19 AM

I wonder about doubles only shooting well at a particular range.

Forsyth wrote "THAT" was W. Greener's premise in 1858, that a double gun could only be made to shoot well at an exact range. He also stated that it would cross at all further ranges due to the inclination of the barrels. Forsyth then wrote he believed that if the barrels shot perfectly, ie: the gun was regulated to shoot parallel, the bullets or balls would be parallel at ALL ranges.

He stated he'd owned 2 that shot perfectly and proved such shooting by shooting through paper at ranges out to 100yards, where at every 10 yards paper, the balls (grouping) were still hitting parallel. W.W. Greener, in 1911, IIRC from his writing, agreed with the perfect regulation as being parallel.

I do not think it out of line to attempt to find a load that shoots 'perfectly' - ie: parallel - even though for hunting purposes, that is not necessary and slight allowances can be made for the size of the 'X' ring.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: DarylS]
      #236995 - 23/10/13 03:25 AM

I've had four double rifles that shot the same at 100 yards, however it's pushing the limit of my marksmanship.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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416rigby
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Port Angeles, Washington USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: bonanza]
      #237116 - 26/10/13 04:41 AM

I WISH I had your problem...it would mean I owned a double. LOL

I'm shooting the 500 Nitro 3 1/4" in a custom barreled Ruger No.1 and I get great results with 570gr Woodleighs (softs, I haven't tried solids) with 114gr. H-4831 in HDS brass and Federal 215 primers. I don't have a chrono, so I have no idea what they're actually making as far as speed, but accuracy is great. You might want to try this powder and bullet, but again, I have no way of knowing if this particular loadwould be safe in a double, since the No.1 is so much stronger.

The data source, which I can't remember now, listed the following:
109gr. 2057 fps 31,800psi
112gr. 2115 33,700
113gr. 2150 36,300
114gr. 2175 37,000
115gr is max listed load.

Keep us posted, I love hearing about this stuff.

Cheers,
Rick

Edited by 416rigby (26/10/13 04:45 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: bonanza]
      #237124 - 26/10/13 07:32 AM

Quote:

I've had four double rifles that shot the same at 100 yards, however it's pushing the limit of my marksmanship.



If I know a double is on, accurate or whatever, then I just make sure Get as good a sight picture as possible on the animal before pulling the trigger.

I am rarely off such as a running away hip shot.

I'd push it out to 150 yards for 2nd or 3rd shot without a problem if the gun fits me and is accurate.

Have never been one to be able to stand and accurately shoot targets at 100 yards though.

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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 402
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #237131 - 26/10/13 09:00 AM

Hello Postman,

PM sent.

best regards
Rolf

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416rigby
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Port Angeles, Washington USA
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Rolf]
      #237167 - 27/10/13 03:39 AM

Looking through my manuals last night, I realized the data above is from the A-Square manual.

--------------------
"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun"

U.S. Coast Guard, retired

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: DarylS]
      #237175 - 27/10/13 03:02 PM

Quote:

I wonder about doubles only shooting well at a particular range.



That is because it is often a load of rubbish ie a double can only be shot to regulation at a "specific" distance.

What a useless piece of shooting crap a double rifle would be if this was actually the case ... which of course it is not.

Quote:

.... Forsyth then wrote he believed that if the barrels shot perfectly, ie: the gun was regulated to shoot parallel, the bullets or balls would be parallel at ALL ranges.



As the rifle is a Heym ... the regulators at Heym have told me, USA customers usually ask for a double to shoot "parallel", while European customers request rifles to "cross" at a certain distance.

With reality at different ranges and increasing size groups - due to MOA over different distances, slight ammo variations, etc if a rifle is designed to "cross" say at 75 metres, or shoot "parallel", will the difference be discerable at 100 metres?

While my Valmet/Tikka in 9.3mm is a cheapie, it is interesting to play with as with the barrel wedges it is self "regulating". It also shoots one-hole two shot groups with each barrel at 100 metres so the movement/changes at each range is quite noticeable and discernable. I have mine shooting parallel at 100 metres 25 mms apart.


Quote:

He stated he'd owned 2 that shot perfectly and proved such shooting by shooting through paper at ranges out to 100yards, where at every 10 yards paper, the balls (grouping) were still hitting parallel. W.W. Greener, in 1911, IIRC from his writing, agreed with the perfect regulation as being parallel.



Interesting.Does he state what the rifle and calibre was?

Quote:

I do not think it out of line to attempt to find a load that shoots 'perfectly' - ie: parallel - even though for hunting purposes, that is not necessary and slight allowances can be made for the size of the 'X' ring.



In theory the bullets must be exiting consistently at the muzzle at the same distance from each other. Even given barrel time, bullet speed while in the barrel and muzzle movement during it, bore distance apart etc. If the muzzle exit distance apart is extreme, this would show up at close ranges such as 10 metres or 25 metres and closing by 75 metres ie crossing. I don't know if I have ever seen this myself, so I doubt it is the case.

The above idea of perfectly shooting parallel should be easily testable with some DRs IMO especially with medium calibre rifles as many are extremely accurate. And also easier to shoot accurately with less recoil.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #237176 - 27/10/13 03:13 PM

Quote:

Bullet selection is pretty limited in Canada for this caliber. Barnes are reasonably easy to get, Woodleighs show up only very rarely, and Swift does not export to Canada at all. The rifle is a Heym PH 88B. Each barrel on it's own is extremely accurate, but the composite group, not so much unless the load is reduced. With the reduced load, it is child's play to tear the centre out of the bullseye with the composite group. I will try other bullets, and maybe other powders and will get the velocity up toward full power to see what happens. I do appreciate all the good advice everybody has shared - thank you! I suppose I was hoping that with a bullet that large/heavy, I could live with the reduced from full power load so the gun regulated well. Looks like I'm headed back to the load bench and lots more range time!



I know what the regulater at Heym would say ... at least I believe I know. That would say the rifle has been regulated with a scope so should be shot with one.

A customer must have asked for the scope to be fitted and have it regulated with it, as it is unusal for a .500 NE to be scope sighted.

I would also suggest trying some Woodleighs in it, different powders etc.

I would like to ask when the rifle was made? Does it specifially state Hornady DGX's as the factory regulation loads? Are these projectiles mono-metal bullets or solid partition style bullets (ie a sold cross section) in the bullet?

Personally I don't go near monometal bullets or partition style-solid cross section type bullets in any of my doubles. The exception would be bullets with decent RAISED driving bands ie "raised" bands, not grooves cut into the solid shanks.

Lastly if I was hunting buffalo with a .500, I would personally not worry too much about using your lower velocity "accuracy" load at around 1850 fps. I would try to improve on it, but would use it if necessary. The factory loads regulation/accuracy at 10 inches is unworkable.

Quote:

So, I've pondered the good advice the membership has graciously shared (thanks to all !!!) and I am going to embark upon a path of alternate powders as the 1st order of business.

At the risk of imposing further, I am interested in pet loads anyone might be willing to share using the following powders I have on hand:

1. Varget (A2208)
2. IMR 4320
3. H380
4. RL-22

...



For more suggested loads try doing a search on the "Reloading for Doubles" forum using criteria such as "500", "500 NE", "500 Nitro Express", and there should be some members loads listed on that forum.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
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Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: 500Nitro]
      #237177 - 27/10/13 03:17 PM

Quote:


Postman

Geoff McDonald - Woodleigh doesn't like AR2208 in the big calibres, reckons you get pressure spikes with it.

Personally, I have taken his advice and never used it.

I use 2209 and 2213 as the two.

As I have said above, use a slower powder.


Interesting you say the guns factory target was with a scope and you are shooting open sights. Do you have the scope and I wonder if that target is two shots from the right barrel ?



I have seen a test down at the factory of the different between a scope and non-scope and the difference can be considerable in some cases. Compromise rifles for open sights and scopes can be made, but ideally principally for one setup, the other being the compromise. Usually the scope would be the principal sighting system, with open sights the compromise.

Why anyone would have asked for a scoped .500 NE though???

Nowadays for people with eyesight problems, a Docter type dot point MAY be a possible solution with a single sight picture for people needing glasses, but not needing a scope on a heavy recoiling rifle. A dot point will still possibly need regulation different to open sights though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: NitroX]
      #237426 - 03/11/13 09:39 AM

So, some very positive news from the range today!

I tried a load of 113.25 grains RL-19 +/- 0.1 grains using a TSX FB Barnes 570 grain bullet. I also seated the bullet 0.010 further out from what I had during earlier loads. Seems that seating to my original depth yielded a sickly crunching sound as the heavier load of RL-19 powder was crushed a little.

The composite group was 2 1/2" high x 1 1/4" wide at 50 yards with both barrels superimposed, 1/2" to the right of the bull at 3 o'clock. I was not able to crony the new load but the recoil tells me it's probably pretty close to factory velocities. When I get a chance to chrony this load, I will post the velocity I'm getting. I pray it's over 2000 fps, but I am very positive and hopeful.

Next time I get opportunity to go to the range, I will chrony the new load and will also try it at 100 yards. Please note, I'm not necessarily intending to shoot buffalo at 100 yards, but shooting practice at that distance will give me additional confidence in both the rifle and myself.

With respect to the questions surrounding the factory target where they indicate it was done with a scope, I bought the gun slightly used with no scope. It was near mint condition, and my borescope endoscope Hawkeye has shown me no noticeable wear in the throat or leade or anywhere else down the length of the bore. Indeed, the bore and rifling is beautifully done, similar to the look of a finely polished custom barrel like a Lilja or Krieger.

Anyway, back to the scope question: there are two 1" long narrow grooves machined down each side of the quarter rib, and a single shallow 1/16th" long blind hole on the top of the quarter rib. I am presuming this is some sort of facility for a Heym proprietary scope mount? It would seem to me that maybe this may be something the factory uses simply to test regulation? I can't imagine there is enough purchase for a mount to be robust enough for field use?

I would like to thank all the members for their help, comments, opinions, advice, and help that has provided me guidance to get this gun to shoot. When I bought it I fell in love with it, and I just knew it had to shoot well. I now have a light load and by all indications a heavy load that both group exceptionally well.

I was worried for a while that I had spent a lot of money only to feel like the person that wakes the next morning severely hung over, with a fresh tattoo, a new wedding ring, and a scary looking stranger naked in bed beside them, sporting a matching wedding ring. My fear was for naught. I now have a great Heym that shoots very well with both a light and heavy load!

Edited by Postman (03/11/13 09:45 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #237633 - 09/11/13 06:48 PM

It is fun to shoot a buffalo at 10 yards. But sometimes necessary also at 100 yards! So good to check it out at that range as well, as to how it shoots.

Is that load crossing by 50 yards? ie the "superimposed"?

"back to the scope question: there are two 1" long narrow grooves machined down each side of the quarter rib, and a single shallow 1/16th" long blind hole on the top of the quarter rib. I am presuming this is some sort of facility for a Heym proprietary scope mount? It would seem to me that maybe this may be something the factory uses simply to test regulation?"

A photo would help, but are you describing claw mount grooves or something shallower? Generally I would have thought four grooves in that case?

In any case I would NOT bother with a scope on a .500 NE.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Cazadero
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Reged: 17/10/11
Posts: 561
Loc: Texas
Re: .500 NE Velocity / Power for Buffalo [Re: Postman]
      #237960 - 18/11/13 01:44 PM

Quote:

@ Cazadero: there is great wisdom within which you espouse....



Yes thank you. Will you please contact my children and convince them of this?



Quote:

Do I need to be 10 yards away? 30? Where do I draw the distance line?



If you can't hear your own heartbeat and the crepitus in your neck, or the flies, or if you don't marvel at how loud the leather of your belt squeaks, and maybe best of all, if you don't smell the distinct odor of cattle,

well then your not close enough, because how close you managed to get is what you will relish when you share the story more than anything else.

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