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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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cordite
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Another 10.75x57 Mauser
      #236693 - 15/10/13 09:44 AM

I thought there might be some interest in this rather rare Mauser. I picked it up several years ago and now that I'm retired I intend to devote some time developing loads and shooting it. Dies acquired and 30-06 brass ready for fire forming. [image]http://[/image]

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236694 - 15/10/13 09:47 AM


[image]http://[/image]

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236695 - 15/10/13 09:49 AM

[image]http://[/image]

[image]http://[/image]

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236696 - 15/10/13 09:52 AM

Numbers match on trigger guard and bolt. It is quite light and while rather plain, I'm quite taken with it. It has 4 grooves filed in the wood on the bottom of the stock which I take to mean it has had some success in the hunting fields. [image]http://[/image]

Edited by cordite (15/10/13 09:54 AM)

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Igorrock
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236697 - 15/10/13 01:15 PM

Very nice rifle, from where do you bought it ?

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Igorrock]
      #236699 - 15/10/13 02:04 PM

I walked into a local Idaho gun shop and spotted it. I have a Winchester model 70 converted to 404 Jeffery so when I saw the size of the bore I knew it was something special. I have a couple of cast bullets for the 404 that should work well for this.

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lancaster
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236772 - 16/10/13 09:34 PM

thats an very interesting rifle, you had seen this post about the geco/kaba rifles? http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=206900&an=0&page=0#Post206900

its a more basic model but none the less very charming. probable made in Suhl/Zella Mehlis and the EK on the barrel is iirc this things for Erich Kelber a barrel maker in suhl.
I wonder about the 18,3gramm stamp on the receiver because only the 22,5 gramm bullet was ever used in the 10,75x57. could be the rifle was made by the same unknown firm who build also the higher grade Kaba sporting rifles.

--------------------
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/10/13 09:37 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #236773 - 16/10/13 10:01 PM

Quote:

probable made in Suhl/Zella Mehlis and the EK on the barrel is iirc this things for Erich Kelber a barrel maker in suhl.


The Suhl barrelmakers Kelber were named Louis and Wilhelm, not Erich. But there was a barrelmaker Edmund Keller, Schützenallee12, Zella-Mehlis, and an Emil Klett, Gothaer Str. 122b, Suhl, both active during the 1920s-30s. As the rifle was proofed as number 187 November 1937 in Zella-Mehlis, Edmund Keller is more likely.

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #236793 - 17/10/13 01:58 AM

Yes Lancaster, I have seen your other posts on Geco rifles and the 10.75 and found them most informative.
One thing I forgot to mention is that the rifle is marked "Simpson LTD, IL" in very small print inside the trigger guard. I assume Simpson was the importer.

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Igorrock
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236796 - 17/10/13 03:07 AM

It seems that any other 10,75x57 CeCo which I have seen, do not have ordinary military bottom metal/trigger guard so is it possible that this in yours rifle, cordite, has been, for reason or another, changed?

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Igorrock]
      #236798 - 17/10/13 03:48 AM

I think the trigger guard is original based on the fact that underneath the wood it is stamped 52 as is the underside of the bolt handle to match the rifle's serial number of 352.

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lancaster
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236799 - 17/10/13 04:32 AM

simpson http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?cPath=350_358&sort=2a&page=2 had allways importet a lot of old sporting rifles from sweden in the last years. so it would be possible again that your rifle was also one of the Geco(Kaba was more or less a subdivision)rifles for the swedish market. till now every rifle in 10,75x57 made between the wars had a connection with Geco.
just try it and send Simpson a mail with your gun's data and ask them if they can tell you when and from where your rifle was importet.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/10/13 04:33 AM)

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: lancaster]
      #236809 - 17/10/13 10:01 AM

I contacted Simpsons as you suggested. Their response was not very informative but at least they did respond. Their response: "It was part of a shipment we imported from Sweden."

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236893 - 19/10/13 11:43 AM

Shot the Mauser today. Thought I would share what I did to get it loaded up. I have tried several times to neck up 30-06 with a number of different caliber dies. Did not have any luck they were all rather crooked and nasty looking. I know other people do it but it sure didn't work for me. I went to Ken Howell's book DESIGNING AND FORMING CUSTOM CARTRIDGES FOR RIFLES AND HANDGUNS, which I highly recommend, and he talks about having the same problem and goes on to recommend fire-forming. I had Unique on hand so I loaded new 30-06 brass with 11 grs Unique, a bit of tissue, filled the case with cornmeal and then put a bit of bullet lube on top to hold it all together. Pointed the gun straight up and presto, perfectly formed cases. I also tried it with new 9.3x62 and it worked fine also.
Here is a picture,left to right
new 30-06 brass, new 9.3x62 brass, formed case from 9.3x62, once fired 10.75x57 formed case, loaded 10.75x57 formed case
[image]http://[/image]

Not much shoulder is there. But it seems to me that a tapered case, with even the slightest bit of shoulder, formed to fit the chamber, should headspace fine as long a one strictly leaves the sizing die well off of the shellholder. There certainly isn't any margin for error or carelessness! I like to feel a bit of resistance when I close the bolt. That tells me that everything is snug in the chamber.

I have several bullet available that I use in my 404 Jeffery
Left to right
362 gr flat nose cast from Mountain Moulds, 350 gr NEI cast, 350 gr Woodleigh, 350 Barnes, 400 Barnes
[image]http://[/image]

I'm thinking short-range heavy cover thumper for deer, elk and black bear. I really want to use the cast bullets, especially the first one shown, the flat nose from the Mountain Moulds. I believe the jacketed bullets will not open up well at lower velocities.

I went with a modest load of H4895 to start. No need to hot rod this.So here we go ready for a trial run.
[image]http://[/image]

Here is a picture of my first group (yes the date is off by one day). Everything seemed fine, cases primers etc. The rifle is light and certainly lets you know when it goes off, but not too bad. I have taken a bit of game in the past 20 years with peep sights but it has been a long time since I tried to settle that front bead in the small notch of an open sight. It will have to be a short range situation with my eyes! Given that I was quite pleased with this result.
[image]http://[URL=http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media
/DSCF16532_zpsd8a7b472.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

So that's what I've done so far. With a bit more work, I think the old Mauser will be carried in the woods this fall.
I welcome any and all thoughts on my loading process.

Edited by cordite (19/10/13 12:59 PM)

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Claydog
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236895 - 19/10/13 12:42 PM

I am not really into the loading side of things but I would be very happy with that grouping at 60 with iron sights! There certainly is not much shoulder on those cases.

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Claydog]
      #236912 - 20/10/13 03:18 AM

Quote:

I am not really into the loading side of things but I would be very happy with that grouping at 60 with iron sights! There certainly is not much shoulder on those cases.



No there is not. That is one reason why I posted this. I think I'm going about this in a safe way but the lack of shoulder is a concern. As I said above, it seems to me that a tapered case formed to the chamber has plenty of head space control as long as you don't resize it.
Another picture - why is this rifle so light? Big hole in a slender barrel!
[image][/image]

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Huvius
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236917 - 20/10/13 04:22 AM

Wow!
Looks great and I would be happy with that group as well.
I notice that some of your empties look like the mouth is rolled a little bit.
Perhaps a chamber cast and flat trimming your brass to the maximum length of the chamber will help in headspacing. I wouldn't chamfer the outside of the case mouth as a square edge could be what you want similar to the way a 45ACP chamber is cut.

--------------------
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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Huvius]
      #236924 - 20/10/13 07:16 AM

[image]http://[/image]

I was comparing a fired case to measurements shown in my old copy of Cartridges of the World. For the most part it is pretty close except for the shoulder measurement. Barnes shows .465 inches for the shoulder which is incorrect as the cartridge would then have no taper. My CH dies are marked .455 which I assume is the shoulder measurement. I measure .456 on the case.
Measurements 1).448 2).456 3).461 4).463

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Kebco
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236937 - 21/10/13 02:29 AM

Did you trim the cases prior to fire forming? Is so to what length?
I have two guns chambered for the 10.75x57 and to date I have never shot them. Your post has encouraged me to dig them out and think about getting them up and running.
BTW one of my guns is a GECO #539

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cordite
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Kebco]
      #236939 - 21/10/13 02:56 AM

I had this rifle several years before I decided to get serious with it. The first time I formed a case and saw the almost non-existent shoulder I put it right back in the safe!

I did not trim before fire forming since no bullet was used. It is pretty obvious in looking at the fire formed case where the chamber ends. As pointed out by Huvius above, I probably could have trimmed the cases just a tiny bit more to clean up the mouth where it starts to roll in at the end of the chamber. My trim length turned out to be 2.207 inches.

I hope you take the plunge and get your rifles going. Is your #539 like my #352? Seems like most of these rifles that have appeared before are fancier, engraving, ribs etc. Post some pictures!!
I wish we had more historical information about how this caliber came about, how much it was used etc.
I don't think I would want to fire generic factory ammo in my rifle. Fire forming to each individual chamber seems like the way to go given the case shape.

Edited by cordite (21/10/13 03:18 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: cordite]
      #236943 - 21/10/13 04:13 AM

The lack of a shoulder concerns me also - but that is merely an opinion and that problem can be overcome.

I would not be too hasty in accepting that CH4D made the dies the correct size to start with.

A fired case, when using a good strong load, will give a better indicator of what the chamber actually looks like. Add .001" to a case dimension for chamber size - IF that strong load has been used, otherwise that number is of little use. Of course a chamber cast, measured at the correct time, will also give the proper measurements.

.456" on a fired case indicates an actual .457" or .458" shoulder in the chamber - perhaps - IF it was a stiff load generating some 50,000psi or more was used, then measured after firing. If the pressure was lower than that and the case was well annealed perhaps that measurement is still useful. If the case was not annealed, the measurement is not to be trusted.

Due to the heavy pin fall of a Mauser and the strong chambering power of the action, I'd make sure all my bullets engraved in the lands when chambering - of course one must start low with their data and build loads that are safe in THAT rifle, when Loaded in that manner.

That is how we load small bore ammo - ie: the .17's & .20 calibre bullets are seated to engrave in the lands when chambered and the data for that seating depth is started low, then developed at that seating depth, there are NO pressure surprises and the ammo is perfectly safe. The reason it is loaded that way is that they usually deliver the best accuracy when seated to engrave the lands - in straight chambers, that is.

NEVER start with a maximum load, of course- we all know and adhere to that, don't we?

I'd be happy with that load, as well, Cordite. Nice rifle!!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kebco
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: DarylS]
      #236945 - 21/10/13 04:45 AM

My #539 gun is very similar to your #352. The markings are a little different on the action but the barrel, sights stock look very much the same.
I have been told that the bore diameter can be different from the 404 and 10.75x68, but I have never slugged mine to find out.
my second gun is built on a small ring 98 (ex-KAR)

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Igorrock
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Kebco]
      #236949 - 21/10/13 07:29 AM

Quote:

I have been told that the bore diameter can be different from the 404 and 10.75x68

My friend has a Sauer made 10,75x68. He said that modern .404 bullets are a tad small to his rifle so he mostly shoot selfmade hard bly bullets.

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DarylS
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Re: Another 10.75x57 Mauser [Re: Igorrock]
      #236958 - 22/10/13 02:45 AM

Cast bullets, if made with real lead Wheel Weights, can be heat treated very easily. A lead/antimony home-mix will need the addition of lead shot, which contains the arsenic necessary to allow heat treating. WW already has the trace amounts of arsenic in them, which allows heat treating.

A simple lead and tin mix cannot be heat treated, without the addition of antimony and arsenic, I assume.

Heat treated WW bullets can easily exceed Linotype bullets in hardness by 50%, but without the brittle nature of Linotype.

The rate of heat treating is adjustable by the heat used, as well, temper can be drawn down if they come out too hard. Heat treating cast bullets is a science in itself.

You can Google Verl Smith for more details as he wrote the book on this subject.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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