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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: AkMike]
      #236085 - 26/09/13 12:30 PM

Quote:

It'd be interesting to find out who put that medallion in the stock of Teddy's DR and WHY???.
AkMike


Hello AkMike,

Its the "Presidential Seal" - see this link for all the answers. Much of Teddy's Gun was restored, just like mine was. Holland & Holland even "distressed" the new made parts to match the wear of the rifle.

http://www.nrvoutdoors.com/TR/TRBIGSTICK.htm

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236099 - 26/09/13 07:19 PM

Quote:


He looks the epitomy of an English Officer !!!
-500Nitro



Yes, he sure does. I have found dozens of first-hand accounts of his Military service as documented to the British Government in Official reports written about his service by his superiors. The more I read, the more respect I have for the man as a brilliant officer. Its a shame he died at such a young age.

see: "Papers by Command, Volume 69 By Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons" at this link. The Official accounts of these engagements in Africa is a very interesting read.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sZEOAQA...ll"&f=false

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236100 - 26/09/13 08:36 PM


What age did he die ?

And in battle, wounds after or just natural causes ?

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kuduae
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236104 - 26/09/13 11:17 PM

Holland & Holland too once offered the 20-.577 Express. Found this pic in the book "The Shooting Field with H&H" by Peter King:

BTW, the cartridges shown above by buckstix seem to be black powder loads with their paper patched lead bullets.

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:00 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236106 - 26/09/13 11:49 PM

Hello 500Nitro,

He died at age of 51. I found a reference that stated he was actually born in India while his mother and father were there. His father Lt-Colonel A.C. McNeill was in the East India Company and became an officer in the Madras Army and awarded the CSI.

The reference further indicates the Capt. M.McNeill joined the Argylls at the outbreak of WWI, and was killed in Flanders in 1917. It does not say if he died on the battlefield, or in hospital. I'm still searching.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236107 - 27/09/13 12:56 AM


Well, if he was killed in Flanders in 1917,
plenty of huge battles to choose from in that
year around Flanders.

Multiple battle of Flanders
Battle of Ypres
and from memory Passchendaele as well.

Easiest thing would be to look up where the Argylls were fighting in that year.

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236131 - 27/09/13 09:25 AM

Hello All,

Well, my range report is very disappointing to say the least. But its not the guns fault, It's mine. Initially, I only received three AH 20-.577 brass cases with the rifle. (more are on the way) Those cases were 2-3/4" long. I also had 2 old Winchester 2-1/2" brass 20 gauge cases in my collection, so I necked those down to .577 with some improvised neck sizing rings turned out on the lathe.



I loaded the 3 cases, along with the 2 old Winchester 2-1/2" brass cases, with 550g paper-patch bullets. Only difference being that Winchester cases have a 1/4" shorter neck.



I stayed very conservative and loaded them with 62g IMR 4198. But, in the 3 AH cases, I accidentally used F210 regular rifle primers instead of F215 magnum primers. The 2 Winchester cases were already factory primed with, whatever, and it never dawned on me that those factory primers may have been 50 to 75 years old?

Needless to say, this was a fiasco. Of the five loaded rounds, 4 went off, but 2 were "hang-fires", "chick - - boom", and the 5th was a miss-fire that sent the bullet only 8" into the barrel. When I opened the gun, about 50 grains of unburned powder sprinkled into gun's action. It took nearly an hour to get all the little sprinkles out, so I could close the action again.

Tomorrow we try again with a 70g load of IMR 4198 and Federal F215 mag primers.

I'm almost embarrassed to show the target, but maybe it will show how easy it is to have a "brain-fade" and end up wasting an afternoon. I've learned a valuable lesson. Too much excitement about a new acquisition can cloud ones judgement.



As for the bullet I'm using, here are some pics of the bullet mold I have. It's a commercial British mold for the 577 Gibbs. It casts a 550g paper-patch bullet with a shallow hollow base for tucking the paper tail. As you can see, its a side pour mold. After casting you simply snip the sprue with a small side-cutter and its ready to go. It casts very fast because the sprue stem "pulls" the bullet free of the mold, almost automatically, when you open the mold. Its one of the best casting molds I own. The "snip" line is nearly imperceptible, and irons away when the bullet expands into the rifling upon firing.



Bullets are finally paper-patched and lubed, and you're ready to go.

As a side note, I've been custom reloading for over 40 years and I shoot over 5,000 rounds every year, and never before have I paper-patched even a single bullet. It was a mystery to me and I always thought it was beyond my capability. With my new interest in Vintage Double Rifles, I felt I had to learn this technique. I read that during the Civil War, Women and children paper-patched bullets for the Arsenals. I figured if kids could to it, so could I. Much to my surprise, it is very, very easy. Now I've paper-patched hundreds of bullets, while watching the nightly news on TV in the evening.





--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:01 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236152 - 27/09/13 02:27 PM

I don't know the cartridge or loading for lead projectiles, but have you got a lot of space in the cartridges after charging the powder and are you using a filler or not?

ie regarding the hangfires and the unburned powder.

Sorry if the above comments are basic and you are far above that sort of comment.

Take care.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: NitroX]
      #236155 - 27/09/13 02:55 PM

Hello NitroX,

Yes, I use "Backer Rod" as a filler. Backer Rod is a closed cell foam rod that comes in 20 foot and 50 foot lengths in various diameters; 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", etc. Its used to fill the gaps around window frames during initial installation to prevent drafts. It is somewhat resilient, but very light. I used 5/8" dia rod, cut to 1-1/4" long, in these reloads. It weighed only about 1 grain.



I put a touch of bullet lube on my fingers, and transfer it to the rod while handling it to make the outside of the foam rod a little slippery. I take care not to use too much lube, or get any of it on the end of the foam rod where it could touch the powder. I then carefully "screw" it through the case neck by rotating as I insert it. I compress it "ever-so-slightly" and "carefully" as I rotate it into the neck and all the way down into the case until it pushes against the powder. With the bullet seated, its length is compressed about 1/8" and the foam rod holds the powder firmly against the inside base of the case.



Its a closed cell foam, so you have to be careful NOT to compress it too much, otherwise you will fracture the cells and it wont spring back to full diameter. I also use this same 5/8" with my 577-500 bpe. I little compression to get it through the neck, and it "puffs" back to full diameter inside the case body. It works great, but again, be careful not to squeeze it too much. Of course it works effortlessly in a straight wall case, like the 500 bpe, where I use a 1" piece that weighs about 8/10 grains. It drops right in on top of the powder.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:02 PM)

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Huvius
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236169 - 27/09/13 10:42 PM

Buckstix,
Another thing to remember is that a charge of smokeless will not bump up your bullet the way black powder does.
Make sure your patched bullet diameter is at least groove diameter and preferably .001-.002" greater if using pure lead.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: Huvius]
      #236173 - 27/09/13 11:16 PM

Quote:

Make sure your patched bullet diameter is at least groove diameter and preferably .001-.002" greater if using pure lead.
-Huvius

Hello Huvius,

Well, I've read, and heard "that" from a lot of shooters over this past year. But I'm not sure its true. I think this is one of those "urban legends" that got written somewhere, and repeated, and repeated, and then taken as absolute fact.

Granted I'm new to this paper patch game, but I've got a lot of experience with lead bullets having shot well over 50,000 bullets in my various Schuetzen rifles.

My experiences with shooting paper-patch bullets in 4 different rifles has shown this NOT to be true. I've shot paper-patch bullets in these 4 rifles;

1) Alex Henry Single Shot in 450-3-1/4"
2) William Richards 577-500 No.2
3) Jansen 500 bpe
4) 20-.577 Dickson

All 4 rifles have Henry Rifling and in all 4 cases my finished paper-patched & lubed bullets have been "undersize" by .005" - .012", and they have all "bumped-up" nicely, and have shot very respectably.

My previous recently acquired double, the Ad. Jansen in 500 bpe, has a bore dia of .504" and a groove dia of .524". The paper-patched bullets measured .510" after lubing, a full .012" undersize. The bullets were 30:1 lead/tin, used as cast, and patched with 2 wraps of .0025" thick 100% rag. My lube on the paper-patched bullets was "Lee Liquid Alox" that was applied with my fingers. Here is that target.



I will say this, however, in all 4 loadings I have used IMR 4198 powder and 30:1 bullet alloy. Perhaps bumping-up may be a problem with other powders, or with harder bullets, but I wouldn't take it as Gospel that all paper-patched bullets "must be" at least "groove diameter". I think a lot of people run into "neck" - "chamber" clearance problems by using bullets that are "too" big.

I think one needs to "test" his specific rifle to see what works for it.

One of my "Life Philosophy's" is;

".. get as many opinions as possible, throw-out the extremes, and then make your own decision .. "

All this of course is just MHO.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:04 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236195 - 28/09/13 10:11 PM

Hello Buckstix,

You have acquired a wonderful rifle. Its history is fascinating, and it is fitting that you are the current caretaker. Your research has added quite a bit to the rifle, and with its preservation the next generation will receive the rifle knowing what a special existence it has had. I hope during the years of your ownership the rifle will log new events that will become part of its long life, to be passed along. It not only has a past, but also a present and future.

Thanks for sharing your excitement. Please update this thread with your successes as they occur, whether it be on the shooting bench or in the hunting woods.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #236197 - 28/09/13 11:38 PM

Hello CptCurl,

Thanks for your comments.

I will no doubt continue to research this rifle's most interesting History, as did Cal Pappas who owned it back in the early 2000's.

Here is another reference to Capt. Malcolm McNeill from the London Gazette in May 20, 1902.



We now know exactly how he died. Quoting the Gazette; "...he died, ...suddenly, of heart failure after an attack of malaria. ..."

I suspect he acquired this disease from his several times in Africa.

On to the range.

And here are the shooting results from my second outing. As you can see, the velocity increased significantly from the heavier charge of IMR4198, and the use of F215 magnum primers. Surprisingly, the cartridges loaded with the Winchester Brass were over 125 fps slower in velocity. I can only deduce that this was due to the 1/4" increased "lead" of the shorter cartridge.

The duplicate 1717 fps velocities of the AH cartridges was not a miss-read as my chronograph has a "duplicate" indicator light just for such occasions. As you can see, the increase in velocity brought the L & R closer together. I suspect a little more increase in velocity should have them even closer.

One thing that did surprise me was, even with the rifle weighing 12-1/4 pounds, it kicked the crap out of me! The recoil is a full 15 pounds more than my 577-500 bpe. But, I'm sure that recoil is not a factor, when the alternative is being EATEN by a lion.




And, speaking of lions, I have now finished reading McNeill's book; "In Pursuit of the Mad Mullah--Service and Sport in the Somali Protectorate,"

In the book, McNeill tells of hearing about 4 lions that were attacking a nearby village, and his taking a few days off his Military service to pursue them. It happens that McNeill's 20-.577 was packed away on camels some hours distant, so he set-out with his 12-bore paradox double. With it he shot the first lion. It measured 8' 4" long from nose to tip of tail.

Some time later, his camels arrived bringing him the 20-.577 Dickson/Henry. With it, he went after the other 3 lions. Quoting from page 53;

"... I also had my .577 by now, and felt quite prepared to meet anything that might turn up. ..."

McNeill continued to pursue the other 3 lions and soon came upon the second. Quoting from page 57 and 58;

"... the lion was about 130 yards distant. ..." "... I immediately knelt down and fired with my .577, taking him just in front of the shoulder. On receiving the shot he pulled up at once, nearly falling as he did so, and the left barrel knocked him clean over. He managed to crawl un­der a small tree about 2 or 3 yards off and to get his head round facing me. I put in another shot for safety's sake when I got to about 80 yards from him, but he did not really require it--either of the first two would have killed him. This lion was the biggest of the three I got that day, 8 feet, 10 1 /2 inches as he lay--a big, powerfully made beast, but with no mane. ..."

McNeill then started after the last two lions. They were discovered in heavy cover. Since earlier one of natives had been bitten while pursuing the second lion, McNeill opted to start a grass fire to drive them out of the cover, rather than going in after them. Quoting from page 58 and 59;

"... After some difficulty we got it fairly alight, and after it was about two-thirds burnt, out he came. He stood at the edge of the fire about 80 yards from me, broadside on, and I at once gave him the .577 in the left shoulder. On receiving the shot he turned round and charged straight back through the fire (which was about 18 or 20 yards off), burning his whiskers and singeing himself generally, but not very badly. On getting through the flames he stood on his hind legs, pawing the air, and then fell over on his side--dead. ..."

The forth lion was a female, and McNeill's hunting ethics, dictated him not to pursue her.

So, 3 out of 4 lions in an afternoon's vacation from Duty. And, 2 shot with my 20-.577 Dickson/Henry. One shot at 130 yards, and the other at 80 yards.

I think I'm going to try to find a lion-skin sling for my rifle.

Simply Awesome!

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (29/09/13 09:36 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236198 - 28/09/13 11:53 PM

Buckstix,

It looks like you are making good progress with your loads. Have you observed any leading in the bores? I suspect not.

Keep up the information.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #236199 - 29/09/13 12:03 AM

Hello CptCurl,

No leading issues at all. Although I was initially concerned about the slight pitting of the bores, the paper-patching is doing fine.

I'm ready to go the the range again, with my 5 meager cartridges. I'll try seating the bullets out farther in the Winchester cases so that bullet lead will be closer to that of the longer AH brass.

I'm doing all this without real loading dies, they haven't arrived yet. I have been resizing the case necks with a sizing ring that I made on the lathe, and I've been "staking" the bullets in place with a center punch.

This time I made a "crimping ring" to better control neck tension. We'll see what happens.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236202 - 29/09/13 12:25 AM

Quote:

No leading issues at all. The paper-patching is doing fine.



Great to hear. I thought it would do fine.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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calpappas
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #236249 - 30/09/13 08:49 AM

Helmut:
Enjoying very much your posts on your new rifle and my old rifle. Makes good reading.
Again, post my article here for all to see. Or, I will do it if I can figure it out.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: calpappas]
      #236250 - 30/09/13 10:03 AM

Hello Cal,

Yes, this is my plan in the future.

I just have found another very interesting reference to Capt. Malcolm McNeill. This was a sketch that was published on October 12, 1901, in a Newspaper called the GRAPHIC. (page 485)

It shows Captain McNeill directing his forces in a Battle mentioned in his book. Note the several Martini rifles in addition to the Maxim Machine Gun. McNeill had 2 maxims under his command, a 303, and a 450 cal.

Although Capt. McNeill is shown holding a Martini rifle, I'm sure his 20-.577 was not far away.

The caption reads; "The Expedition Against The Mad Mullah: The Attack On Captain McNeill's Zariba"



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236251 - 30/09/13 10:42 AM

It's interesting that he is even holding a Martini.

Officers were there to direct the fight, not always participate in the fight.

I wonder if he picked it up from a dead soldier as
Officers wore Pistols (Revolvers) and / or Swords,
hence the Sam Browne they wear.


Edited by 500Nitro (30/09/13 10:43 AM)

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #236254 - 30/09/13 12:39 PM

Hello 500Nitro,

Indeed its unusual for an Officer to be holding a rifle, as opposed to a swagger stick.

There is a caption along the right bottom edge of the printing that says; "From a Sketch by a British Officer"

I've purchased the "original" print and will show the caption in detail when I get it. The wording of the advertisement photo that I've shown, is not very clear.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: calpappas]
      #236272 - 01/10/13 07:12 AM

Quote:

buckstix:
"Enjoying very much your posts on your new rifle and my old rifle. Makes good reading.
... post my article here for all to see."
-Cal



"Here is Cal's article that appeared in African Hunter - Vol. 17 No.1 - It tells the story when Cal owned this rifle."

Posted per Cal Pappas's request.






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calpappas
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236274 - 01/10/13 08:55 AM

Thanks, Buck. Enjoy your rifle!
If you'd like to feel some REAL recoil, join us in the spring for a double rifle shoot and take a shot with a .600. 8-bore, or 4-bore. We should have have our next shoot in May (must get through 7 months of winter).
Cheers, mate.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________

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AZDAVE
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: calpappas]
      #236281 - 01/10/13 06:02 PM

Wonderful rifle. Enjoy it and many happy hunts. Thank you for sharing.

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gatsby
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
      #236288 - 02/10/13 12:10 AM

Nice rifle in nice condition. Luckily he had his paradox at the ready for the first lion.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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buckstix
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: gatsby]
      #236392 - 04/10/13 12:17 PM

Hello All,

Well I finally received all the accessories that were purchased with the rifle; the brass, and dies, and bullets. I got 101 bullets. They are 650g lead with 2 grooves. I got 103 pieces of 20-.577 brass with the rifle. NICE! Of the 103, 38 were used, and 55 were "brand new". And the dies? WOW!! What a set of dies. They are huge. Pictures below is the 20-.577 sizing die, along side a std 30-06 sizing die. Big difference. These dies are 1-1/4" thread, compared to the std 7/8" thread. Unfortunately, my press won't take dies this size; I'll have to modify the press.



But, not to be deterred I used the dies by "hand-loading" with them similar to the old fashion "Lee" tools. I hammered the cases into the dies with a mallet. It took a while, but I got 10 loaded. I used the lead bullets because I wanted to try 650g bullets as the rifle was originally regulated for that weight, albeit nickel plated bullets, not lead. But I paper-patched them to keep the bore clean. Paper-patching them made them a bit "large" - .588 dia - but I was able to pound them into the cases, and still get the cartridges into the chambers.



Here are the first "comprehensive" field results. 10 shots, fired in groups of 6 and 4.



I'm very pleased with these results. The velocity is a bit higher than expected; 1604 ave. I will cut back the powder by 3 grains and try again tomorrow. Since most of these shots were "crossing" at this velocity, I'm hoping they'll uncross at a lower velocity. I'm very happy with 9 out of 10 going into a 4" group. Recoil was the most of any of my doubles, with recoil energy being about 49-1/2 ft lbs. The highest of my other doubles being the 500 BPE at 35 ft lbs.

After absorbing nearly a quarter ton of energy from this shooting adventure, I was looking for a lion to walk through the range.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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