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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Crusader68
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility
      #235863 - 20/09/13 08:16 PM

I've been looking at info about color case hardening(CCH) steel parts, but there seems to be loads of conflicting input at to CCH on a 4140 steel part. I was wondering if anyone has done(or had done) a CCH finish on a part made from 4140? In reading posts here and other places, that 4140 can be done but may require different variables in the process(I.e. temp of the furnace, time in furnace, quech water temp etc.). I know Doug turnbull CCH ruger no 1 receivers, which are made from 4140(may be wrong), is it any more difficult than regular low carbon steel? I have seen several parts of 8620 steel CCH, and that is a chrom-moly steel correct?
I've always love the look of a color case hardened receiver and would really love one for myself.

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: Crusader68]
      #235870 - 20/09/13 09:50 PM

I was once told by someone that 4140 could not be color case hardened but I don't remember if it was Oscar Gaddy or someone else. There is always lots of false information around these secretive techniques. I would suggest that you contact Turnbull's and any other guys out there who do color case work and just ask them straight out if it can be done. Most of them will be glad to help you out, just as long as you don't want to know what their receipe is. Bob

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: Crusader68]
      #235882 - 21/09/13 06:14 AM

Crusader68: "CCH finish on a part made from 4140?"

Color case hardening is not done only to create a "finish;" it, foremost, is done to impart a hard surface to the steel, to protect it from scratching, denting, etc., which also happens to make it less susceptible to corrosion. It does little or nothing to give steel more tinsel strength overall, The colors are just a byproduct of the process, (it is thought by the authorities to have happened only by accident, while performing early work on developing the whole process). The colors fade over time, and are eventually eliminated over time, due to sunlight beating on surface, and more significantly due to rubbing (friction) of any kind from gun case, hands, etc. Thus, cch surfaces should always be protected with a coating, such as clear lacquer. Color case hardening of firearms, is generally limited only to parts made of mild steel, low carbon steels, because they color case easily and well. 4140, and many other similar steels used for making gun parts, is generally NOT color case hardened, because the process alters, to some degree, the normally superior tensile strength, and other desirable characteristics of these steels, negatively altering their normally desirable characteristics for a best gun part steel. How do I know this? In tech. college, gunsmithing class, I took color case hardening, learning the process, and also learned the methods and techniques from a highly skilled, knowledge gunsmith, who, at one time, worked in engraving and color case hardening with Colt. Also, I tried to learn all I could from the work done by Oscar Gaddy, when he was alive.

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 131
Loc: South Carolina
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #235906 - 22/09/13 01:29 AM

Bob the birdhunter is correct that 4140 alloy steel is not to be used for normal high temperature quenching color case hardening(CCH), as it is a through hardening steel. The 8620 alloy steel that you mentioned can be CCH, I believe.

However, that being said 4140 alloy steel produces beautiful coloring when Turnbull uses their modified approach to CCH for it specifically, and there appears to be scant surface hardening, or at least that is my observation on the work that Turnbull did on the 20 bore DR they CCH for me. See this link to the "Paradox" forum: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=225579&an=0&page=0#Post225579

Transvaal, AKA Steve

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: transvaal]
      #235912 - 22/09/13 04:20 AM

I've parkerized and heat treated it, but that's it

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hoosier
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Reged: 11/07/11
Posts: 32
Loc: Indiana,USA
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: Ckhobart]
      #235919 - 22/09/13 07:49 AM

It seems that I read somewhere that the way to color 4140 is a chemical process that imparts color to the steel without any surface hardening due to the properties of 4140 not being friendly to the heat involved involved in color case hardening. I don't recall where I came across that info or what the chemical process was but it seem like it required about 300 degrees F. so it would not draw heat treated 4140 to a softer state.

--------------------
BigMike

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Crusader68
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: hoosier]
      #235930 - 22/09/13 03:53 PM

doubleriflejack: in modern firearms, CCH is done a lot of times to simply produce the colors that used to be a by product of carburizing low carbon steels. Not "needed" for strength, but its beautiful and nostalgic(to my eyes at least). But I do believe that there are lacquer type coatings that can be used to protect/preserve the coloring from wearing out too fast, Galazan products sells a case color lacquer.

More than likely, I will be contacting Turnbull and asking them for clarification(my plan was to have them do my CCH either way, they are the top of the line quality). Whilst reading through posts earlier, I did see a post by mr Bradshaw and he said he uses 8620 steel for parts that he intends to CCH, which may be the way to go.

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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Crusader68
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
Re: 4140 steel and color case hardening compatibility [Re: Crusader68]
      #236277 - 01/10/13 09:23 AM

Spoke to the folks at Turnbull, and they confirmed that they can and do indeed color case harden parts made from 4140. I also inquired about possible changes in the properties of the steels, and so far they have not seen any issues with CCH chromoly steels.
Finally seeing my plans in motion(though slow) is quite exciting, I guess I've still got the double rifle fever(much better than normal fevers).

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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