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gwh
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Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean
      #235184 - 05/09/13 07:53 PM

Hello all.

Had an interesting discussion with an experienced gunsmith today about barrel cleaning on doubles. I use boretech eliminator on my rifles and find that it gets rid of all of the copper and carbon. I mentioned that my Merkel 470NE copper fouls after relatively few rounds and asked what his thoughts were (I had been cleaning it back to steel after each shooting session).

He has the same rifle in 500NE and is of the opinion that there is no requirement to clean copper fouling out (no harm in doing it, just that it doesn't do anything for accuracy). He only cleans out the carbon with a quality oil and a brush but leaves the copper alone.

The logic being that barrels in doubles have a number of inconsistencies compared to a bolt gun/ single barrel as a result of the soldering process and adding the rib. Allowing copper fouling to build fills and rounds out these inconsistencies and in general smooths the bore for consistent shooting.

This is a school of thought I have heard previously but it holds more sway when a gunsmith experienced in doubles voices his opinion.

I'd be interested to hear others thoughts and opinions.

best regards

Nathan

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: gwh]
      #235186 - 05/09/13 08:22 PM

Hmmmmm. Eventually the copper will build up to the point where it becomes an issue. Just how much it can build and how much of an issue is a highly variable point.......

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #235187 - 05/09/13 08:57 PM

Yes, it will only get worse if you leave if.

FWIW, my 375 and 458 bolt guns are also chronic copper foulers, but my 500NE is the worst of all in this regard.

There's a Cerakote product that you can use in your bore that minimises any fouling. SLRCoatings at Capalaba can do it for you or you can buy the product from him and do it yourself - his name is Geoff, I think. I know of two people who have had the treatment done and it works (one rifle was a 458Lott and the other a 505Gibbs).

I tried to do it myself on the 375 and 458 but it wore off after a while, but I probably didn't spend the time cleaning it properly before treatment - the bore has to be 100% clean before applying this product.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235188 - 05/09/13 09:36 PM

I use "Wipe out". You will be amazed how much crap comes out after say 35 rounds through a .375. As well as a copper and powder solvent it also acts as a preserver, first time you use it leave it in overnight, then follow instructions, p.s. keep it AWAY from woodwork, best, Mike

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gwh
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #235189 - 05/09/13 10:17 PM

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have always cleaned all of my bores including the 470 back to fully clean on a regular basis, I can see the 'smiths point though and he has years of experience with doubles.

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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500Nitro
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: gwh]
      #235190 - 05/09/13 10:38 PM


GWH

You need to clean the copper out sometime but not nearly
as often as a bolt gun.

If I can going to the range this weekend and next weekend,
then I probably won't clean the copper out but will take
the carbon out and oil it.

I do clean all the guns at the end of each year and that
is strip all the powder AND copper out at the end of
each year to bare metal, then plenty of oil.

Just be aware, his comment of cleaning the powder out,
the powder / copper tends to go in layers. Hence why I suggest alternating when doing a thorough clean.

Hope that helps.

If you want to try the Wipe Out, put a post on this thread.
Graeme Wright was using it to clean his doubles.

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gungadoug
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235191 - 05/09/13 10:57 PM

Well, benchrest shooters certainly want all the copper out. Though I doubt that in a double the accuracy difference would be detectable. I keep mine clean to steel just because it's easier than letting it build up. I use a foam product, and just twice thru with a rod, it is possible to use a rod too much, and damage things that way.
Doug

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DarylS
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: gungadoug]
      #235192 - 06/09/13 12:32 AM

Copper (guilding metal from most bullets) builds up very quickly in some barrels due to roughness in their interiour finishes. The roughness can be caused by various problems, merely a rough rifling job with minor tearing, or pitting in older rifle barrels.

As others have noted, metal fouling merely continues to build up - and up, and up, making the bore quite inconsistent one end to the other as it is not even. Tight spots get tighter, while loose spots might not foul at all, thus making even larger differences and inconsistencies within the tube.

If the rifle regulates with clean bores, you'll probably want to keep them spotlessly clean.

Some products, as John says clean only one of the foulers, powder or copper, thus need to be alternated to get it all.
Some products, like an overnight soak with Wipe-Out foaming bore cleaner, do it all - but, I always use Kroil after drying the bore in the morning. Many cleaners do not leave any oil in the pours of the steel, thus the bore is quick to foul (fouls excessively) with the first shot through a clean dry bore.

Some shooters use EEZOX as an after-prep and bore preservative. It is one of the best, if not the best bore preservative - even better than RIG, which is second best, but is a storage grease more than anything.

I'm picking up some Lock-Eze today from Aukland's who ordered it in for me. This is an after-clean prep as well, that is actually a rust preventative as well. Many of the small bore shooters use it so I am going to try this 'stuff' too.

So - bottom line is I would clean the bores if they copper foul excessively. I would be very careful of stroking the bores with a rod, as Doug noted - they are quite easily damaged with a rod - which is why I really like foaming bore cleaners like Wipe-Out- fill the tube, let it sit overnight and push out the fouling with one patch - clean! If that doesn't work, it's REALLY a bad fouling - do it again. There is NO multiple stroking of the bore to wear the copper out (or the throat's oval) with a bronze brush on a rod - let the chemicals do the work and just a couple drying patches, then a 'light oil' patch and you're done done.
1-piece rods only.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: DarylS]
      #235219 - 06/09/13 01:29 PM

One thing I'm a bit nervous about, is what may dissolve lead, in particular the solder holding the barrels together. I store my double muzzle down in the safe, so that's where the oil will tend to end up of course.

I know lead is relatively inert and won't react too readily with most substances, but after seeing how effective that Leadaway cloth is, it's always in the back of my mind. (I've used Leadaway in my 458 after shooting cast - makes a quick job of it.)

I use Sweets oil in for bore for barrel storage and is seems to be okay - this stuff will also help remove any remaining copper fouling.

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500Nitro
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235220 - 06/09/13 02:03 PM


Mauser

That's why I use Wipe out.

I tested it and I know Graeme Wright did because we had the same concerns.



FYI, I would never leave Sweets 7.62 in the bore of a gun,
it has a history of leaving marks and pits in barrels.
That is why I don't use it.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235221 - 06/09/13 02:51 PM

Okay, I'll go out and get some Wipeout from QGE tomorrow morning.

Note that I was referring to Sweets oil for bore treatment for storage, and not their 7.62 copper solvent. I otherwise do use Sweets 7.62 solvent for copper removal but only as I clean, and never leave it in the bore for an extended time.

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500Nitro
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #235222 - 06/09/13 03:16 PM


Mauser

I'll send you a PM tonight from another computer.

I can't access PM's with this computer.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235229 - 06/09/13 06:07 PM

GWH, I never use rods, I like Otis stuff and use it for everything, nice and portable too, see http://www.otistec.com/Products/Hunting_and_Sporting.asp

best
Mike

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gwh
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235230 - 06/09/13 06:15 PM

Thanks again for the replies so far fellas.

What most of you have talked about is exactly what I have been doing with my rifles for the last 20 years - remove all copper and carbon fouling periodically, dry, then oil. It had seemed like a winning formula and is certainly something that I have and will continue to apply in my bolt and single shot rifles.

I will likely take up my gunsmith friends kind offer to come and have a look through a borescope at a couple of double guns, he is of the opinion that the fouling in a double tends to be a reasonably good thing and that cleaning back to steel is unecessary and has the potential to decrease accuracy.

I understand the various viewpoints on this, they have all have good degrees of merit and every rifle is a law unto itself, but this particular 'smith is a regular shooter and repairer of doubles so I tend to hold his opinion in high regard.

I also note though that in reality, the differences in accuracy we are talking about when considering large bore rifles, either positive or negative, are unlikely to be of any significant consequence. I guess as long as I can continue to group both barrels into the size of an orange at the right distance and point of aim, then it is a bit hard to complain.

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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gwh
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: gwh]
      #235231 - 06/09/13 07:48 PM

Most certainly still interested in other opinions and thoughts on this one

Best

Nathan

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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bwananelson
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: gwh]
      #235242 - 07/09/13 04:28 AM

JB'S PASTE AND KROIL all i ever needed

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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tinker
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: bwananelson]
      #235254 - 07/09/13 07:09 AM

For copper I use foul-out or similar foaming bore treatment.
Typically I follow up with wet isopropyl alcohol patches then oil the bores for storage.

The foaming bore cleaners are amazing, quick, and easy as possibly can be on the barrels.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: tinker]
      #235283 - 07/09/13 11:08 PM

I don't like to leave copper fouling in any barrel. I think it's a fine opportunity for corrosion to get a start.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: CptCurl]
      #235284 - 08/09/13 01:21 AM

Curl has a point. Any moisture at all that gets under fouling will cause oxidation. Any corrosive substance, like chlorate or perchlorate deposits from corrosive primers MUST be cleaned out of the tube or tubes right down to bare steel, or it will dissolve the iron molecules in the steel leaving sharp edged pits - no matter what type of steel.

I used to use bwananelson's method (with a bore guide) of JB and oil along with lots of elbow grease & many passes. I stopped using this after learning too many passes with a rod damages the bore from flexing and rubbing down the bore. Until people started buying bore scopes, this "over scrubbing" of the bores causing damage was merely THOUGHT to happen. Now we know it happens.

I now use no brushes and only solvents that do the work without scrubbing. Scrubbing merely seems to wear away at the fouling and leave fouling itself from the bronze bristles making blue colour that seems to be fouling still in the bore, so we continue scrubbing, whereas if you let the chemicals we're use anyway do the work, there will be little to no rod damage as neutralizing the chemicals and re-oiling is all they are needed for.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: gwh]
      #235292 - 08/09/13 08:56 AM

I use Sweets and for bad fouling plug the chamber and leave it in for an hour or so. Pour the resultant blue fluid out. Patch out the run a couple of Metholated Spirt patches through and no pitting or marks. It is only if you do not clean the Sweets out that causes problems at it does absorb and hold moisture, hence the metho.

Just a point on the fouling evening the bores out. I would of thought that any copper fouling would be on the tighter parts of the bore not the more open parts and hencecause produce greater constriction .

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Marrakai
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: Rule303]
      #235338 - 09/09/13 09:06 AM

Nothing much to add really, other than the observation that a few thou of copper on the lands towards the muzzle of a high-velocity small-calibre target barrel is a far greater percentage of the bore diameter than the same few thou of copper in a .470 or .500.

I used to get excited about removing visible copper from the lands of my doubles, but now only give them the Wipe-Out treatment when the copper becomes super-obvious.
Usually the routine nitro-solvent dissolves enough copper each time to keep it in check. Then with a bore coating of Sweets Oil there is no corrosion under the remaining copper while in the gun-safe between hunts, and like Mauser says, the best oils continue to knock out residual copper to some degree during storage anyway.

I still like a plastic-coated rod with nylon bristle brushes, but I'm certainly not manic in its application. Been doing this all my life: absolutely no risk of bore damage IMHO if you're careful and conservative.

Hope this is of some use.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ozhunter
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: Marrakai]
      #235416 - 10/09/13 08:29 PM

Wipe-out for one hour, then patch, then wipe-out until morning, then patch, then oil.

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DarylS
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Re: Copper fouling - to clean or not to clean [Re: Marrakai]
      #235434 - 11/09/13 01:27 AM

Quote:


I still like a plastic-coated rod with nylon bristle brushes, but I'm certainly not manic in its application. Been doing this all my life: absolutely no risk of bore damage IMHO if you're careful and conservative.
Hope this is of some use.



Exactly - I use the nylon brushes to apply solvents as well.

Have just picked up the liquid version of Wipe-Out - called Patch Out by the same company, but haven't had an opportunity to use it yet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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