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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Mike_Johnson
.300 member


Reged: 17/10/09
Posts: 104
Loc: York, Pa
Thinking about a new double rifle
      #234973 - 01/09/13 12:27 PM

I have only hunted game in the US but future hunts to Canada for Alberta white tail, an alaskan moose, and a caribou hunt are on the list. Closer to home, deer, hogs, exotics are on the list. I'm heading this coming weekend to look at a Merkle 141 in 30-06, with scope rings. I feel the 30-06 is suitable and versatile for all the stated game. I was thinking a low power variable to keep weight down. Thoughts???

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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #234974 - 01/09/13 12:41 PM

I just bought my first and second double rifle in the last 18 months. I looked at that Model Merkel and really liked it. I need a 16 LOP and Chapuis rifles get imported really long, I think many people have them shortened to length. So that's what I went with.

The 30-06 is a great cartridge but most purists lean towards rimmed cartridges, in for moose a 9.x74r would be perfect and you would not be over gunned with it for deer and bear.

I looked really hard at Verney-Carron rifles as well. I actually liked their action the best.

Shoot a few if you can before you buy, each one has it's own personality find what you like and leap.

Enjoy.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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Yochanan
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: Rell]
      #234983 - 01/09/13 07:05 PM

Mike,

Why not go for 300 H&H flanged or 30 Blaser instead of 3006?

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ΄shock΄unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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Mike_Johnson
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Reged: 17/10/09
Posts: 104
Loc: York, Pa
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: Yochanan]
      #234996 - 02/09/13 08:38 AM

I have had a chapius in 9,3 x 74R. Liked it. Perhaps your right and I should look into that caliber. I just found the deal on the Merkle to be very good.

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gungadoug
.333 member


Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #234998 - 02/09/13 09:47 AM

A couple of thoughts- first, a rimless cartridge may not be the best choice, these were really designed for rims- just an extra measure of reliability. Chapuis is good, Merkel and Kreighoff can be had in the next cost level up. Also, a real honest classic double in the original chambering is a possibility, in the same price range sometimes, which I feel will up the satisfaction level a bit, and sure will do the job! Also, an "original" will likely have a greater resale value- they are going up in value instead of the other way if you buy new- when the time comes. Of course, condition is everything, and there may be some load development involved- drat!
My 2 cents worth-- Doug

Edited by gungadoug (02/09/13 09:59 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: gungadoug]
      #235001 - 02/09/13 11:48 AM


If you were going to look at a 30.06,
I'd go 9.3 x 74R as you can always use
light bullets in it.

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #235002 - 02/09/13 12:04 PM

For stateside use I'd have a look at the tried and proven 8X57R. A very easily found cartridge and it's a touch better than the `06 IMO

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: AkMike]
      #235004 - 02/09/13 01:57 PM

I acquired a 450-400 3" Searcy last year and it came with several different loads. The light load is 210gr (edited from 185) pistol bullet, the mid load is 300gr Hornady and the regulation load is for 400gr Woodleighs. All of them will group 2" at 50 yards and I can keep any of them on a Paper plate out to 200 yards with just the iron sights.

With the three different loads I consider it to be a one gun for the world. The 210's (edited from 185) work great on deer size game, the 300's are perfect for heavy game, and the 400's will work for dangerous game. I think the 450-400 is ideal for a hunter(non-PH).

Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

Colin


(see below post for editing reasons - NitroX)

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

Edited by NitroX (03/09/13 03:13 PM)

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: CowboyCS]
      #235013 - 02/09/13 09:00 PM

CowboyCS, what are your loads for your 450-400?
Can you explain these in a bit more detail please
regards
93x64mm

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CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #235022 - 03/09/13 06:21 AM

I should have looked it up before I commented, I was wrong about my light load. I'm using 210gr not 185's.

The Regulation Load:
Case: Norma
Primer: Federal 215
Powder: IMR 4831 82grs
Bullet: Woodliegh 400gr Soft
2050FPS

The Bullets for the other loads are:
Hornady 41Cal(.410) 210gr XTP's
and
Hornady Interlock 405 Caliber(.411) 300gr Flat Nose

Below is the load data I was provided with the rifle:
Caliber: .450-400 NE 3” (400 Jeffery)
Barrel length: 24 to 26”
Powder: Accurate -- 5744.

Bullet weight: 210 grains.
Reduced load: 37.0 grains (1650 – 1750 ft/p/sec)
Midrange load: 47.0 grains (2200 – 2300 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 60.0 grains (2750 – 2850 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight: 300 grains.
Reduced load: 36.0 grains (1650 – 1750 ft/p/sec)
Midrange load: 50.0 grains (2175 – 2275 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 55.0 grains (2275 – 2375 Ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight: 350 grains.
Reduced load: 33.0 grains (1550 – 1650 ft/p/sec)
Midrange load: 44.0 grains (1850 – 1950 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 52.0 grains (2100 – 2200 Ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight: 400 grains.
Reduced load: 30.0 grains (1400 – 1500 ft/p/sec)
Midrange load: 40.0 grains (1700 – 1800 ft/p/sec)
Maximum load: 49.0 grains (1900 – 2000 Ft/p/sec).

Edited to add:
I'm using a felt fiber filler. Just enough to seat the bullet with a very light compression.


I haven't tried anything in the 350gr range, I figure with the 210, the 300 and the 400 I am pretty well covered.

Hope this helps,

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

Edited by NitroX (29/09/13 01:13 AM)

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4200
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: CowboyCS]
      #235056 - 03/09/13 08:26 PM

Cowboy, you have some very good versatile loads there!
Can be used for all manner of game......fantastic to see such an old calibre used with such enthusiasm!
Shame we can't seem to get 5744 here in this part of Oz!
Certainly makes me jealous!
Just about to get my .404 off & running, main 400gn loads are ready to go - just need to get to the range!
Best of luck with your ol' girl!
Cheers
93x64mm

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39883
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: CowboyCS]
      #235057 - 03/09/13 08:31 PM

Colin

Are you using a filler in any of those loads?

If so I would like to edit the post to add that, so anyone reading the post understands that. Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #235081 - 04/09/13 03:11 AM

Mike

Here is my situation, i have CHAPIUS 9.3x74mm. and it shoots just fine to 100 yrds. I am thinking of setting it up with vari-scope and then shooting LEFT barrel ONLY, with hand loaded specific best bullet weight for game intended to shoot at LONG RANGE. That way i can have two shots at SHORT range, or one shot at LONG range, all in ONE DOUBLE RIFLE.
I did look at Merkel 140, and didnt like it as much as CHAPUIS. I like shooting LEFT barrel as LONG range scoped single shot for this reason ... rear trigger (left barrel),for me, is much easier to control.

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CowboyCS
.333 member


Reged: 05/10/07
Posts: 386
Loc: Kansas u.S.A.
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #235103 - 04/09/13 12:53 PM

Quote:

Colin

Are you using a filler in any of those loads?

If so I would like to edit the post to add that, so anyone reading the post understands that. Thanks.


Yep, I'm using a felt fiber filler. Just enough to seat the bullet with a very light compression. I don't seem to be showing any signs of increased pressure. I'm very happy with the accuracy.

Whitetail Last Year

Colin

--------------------
The Bill of Rights- Void were prohibited by law
Stolzer & Son's Gunsmithing

Edited by CowboyCS (04/09/13 01:10 PM)

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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #235143 - 05/09/13 08:30 AM

Mike,
Regarding your comments about animals you intend hunting, your comment about .30-06 caliber, and light weight low power scope to keep its weight down, my input would be as follows:

I was born and raised in Montana; now live in Oregon, and have hunted for the past 50 years or so. My dad, who was in Marine Corp. fighting the Japanese in WWII, as a veteran loved the Springfield rifle and the .30-06 his whole life, loved to work on rifles, and was a real rifleman at heart, who taught his kids to love, respect, and care for rifles too. He had nothing to do with double rifles, probably only because he couldn't afford them, so when I started collecting them, he told me that he could never understand why they cost so much. One thing he expressed to me about the .30-06 cartridge, is that one could buy them anywhere, in any small town in this country, without having to ever worry about not being able to find them, which I have found to be exactly true to this day.

I hunt with many double rifles, over under as well as side by side, with and without scopes, depending on hunting conditions and game hunted. For double rifles, I hate variable scopes, only because they are unnecessarily larger and heavier, while I prefer the smallest single power scopes I can find. When hunting in heavy cover, I prefer low power, single power---preferably 3 power; never more than 4 power. I have some fine Austrian pre WWII over under double rifles, some in .270 and some in .30-06, that are exceptionally accurate and well regulated; I often use them with aforementioned small light weight scopes. I prefer rimmed calibers, but my .270s and .30-06s have never failed me in any way; performed beautifully, so for casual non dangerous game hunting, they are just fine for me. However, when hunting heavy game, moose, caribou, Rocky mountain or Roosevelt elk, etc., the .30=06 is simply too small in caliber, and I have even used 220 grain .30-06 shells too, To avoid such wounds, or killing shots, with the big animals such as this, getting away to die in the mountains, a larger caliber is preferable. Something in .35 or larger caliber is preferable. I have used 9.3x74R, .375 rimmed mag., even .470 and .450 nitro, and found them all to kill big elk, moose, etc. much faster and cleaner than with .30-06.

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Mike_Johnson
.300 member


Reged: 17/10/09
Posts: 104
Loc: York, Pa
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #235164 - 05/09/13 01:18 PM

Thanks for the info. I have had a 470 nitro double, a krieghoff big five, two 450s, one, 45-70, and two 9,3x 57R, one an over under. I was thinking for stateside, 30-06 would be a nice non- dangerous game rifle and wasn't worried about the rimless configuration but your points are very valid. Still going to look at the Merkle but will probably hold onto my money.

I like variables, usually leaving scope on 1.5x in cover, and higher if the shot is a bit longer, helps me pick my spot. As for new vs old, I agree with the originals being more desirious and in this case, I'm limiting myself to the price of this Merkle. I will keep my eyes open.

Further, how are Sabatti rifles?

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Mike_Johnson
.300 member


Reged: 17/10/09
Posts: 104
Loc: York, Pa
Re: Thinking about a new double rifle [Re: Mike_Johnson]
      #235287 - 08/09/13 02:27 AM

I went with a Sabatti in 9,3x74R now to find a scope. thanks guys for talking sense in to me, Still leaves me with money to hunt for a vintage double that I decide I can't live without.

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