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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #234957 - 01/09/13 01:41 AM

BOB

BRAVO ... you just did, in a minute...what took us day's to figure out, about regulating barrels !
After all ... GUN doesn't know if its held in a fixture or hands, as long as its firmly on the SHOULDER in both cases ?


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #234963 - 01/09/13 07:33 AM

BOB

On the subject of barrel regulating and shooting of the rest .... you hit the nail on the HEAD !
All i can say ... IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, go try it for yourself with well regulated, sighted -in double rifle. I DID it with 45-70....9,3x74mm. and 375 H&H magnum doubles.


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alexbeer
.333 member


Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #234968 - 01/09/13 11:19 AM

Hello Bob,

Your milling attachment sounds very similar to mine.

I do not believe there is a "the" way to do this. Mine is "a" way, as is yours. What-ever way works for you is the right way for you. As long as the joint is fitted and prepared correctly there should be no problems.

I cannot see any reason at all to not use the chucking reamers to cut out the barrel beds in the shoe-lump. It should work just as well as my boring bar set-up. The system I have made up is adjustable so it is, for me, very adaptable, versatile and quite simple to set up the required “x” amount of taper for the cut.

As to the fit and finish of the actual joint, I always smoked and filed, smoked and filed until the beds were taking 95% + smoke from the barrels. The joint is there-for a very good fit and I leave it as cut with the files. When the joint is then properly cleaned, (I have called it clinically clean) and fluxed, heated and the silver solder run through it, you have a neat, tidy and incredibly strong union.

Have a look at the progress picture below of a 500NE I built some years ago. The top extension was smoke and file fitted and silver soldered in at the same time. It became the dolls head. The metal was cleaned up with 240 grit before the photo and you can see the very fine silver solder line.



I trust this makes sense.

Best
ALEX

--------------------

Details matter!


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: alexbeer]
      #234987 - 01/09/13 09:16 PM

Thanks Alex,
For your clear and concise reply. It is quite evident that you are a master builder of double rifles. I just hope you can continue to build them in the future ,you are a very talented person.
Thank you for sharing your methods also, it will surely help others to try and achieve better quality rifles such as you have been building for years. Bob


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #235031 - 03/09/13 10:47 AM

Alex,

I'd be interested in seeing your heating setup for when you did the shoe lump/demiblock.

On the Holland dvd it looks like the barrells and demiblock are fluxed, tinned, wired/nailed and the breech end put in an LP gas furnace till the silver solder runs.

Is your setup/process more complicated than this ?????


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 131
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #235082 - 04/09/13 03:54 AM

Alex;

I too, am interested in your setup to silver solder the barrels and the short rib for the rib extension.

I am going to shoelump a set .30-40 barrels and I plan to build a temporary fire-brick muffle with a propane burner, without a forced air assist blower. Seems to me like the blower is too much for such an application and would produce too much heat. However, if you have found another method of heating without the necessity of a temporary brick muffle' I am interesting in learning about it.

I am also interested if you used any of the 'anti-scaleing products to coat the bore of the barrels while you brazed them to the shoe lump. There is such a product here in USA that I have used to coat prior gun lock parts prior to heat treating and quenching, in order to not have surface scale build up. It works well. It is in a powder form and can be mixed with alcohol to form a paste to apply to the metal; and afterward boiling in plain water will remove the hardened paste.

Regards;
Steve


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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 626
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: transvaal]
      #235090 - 04/09/13 07:36 AM

I have been looking into induction heating....lots of possibilities there and set up cost is not prohibitive.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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alexbeer
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Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #235091 - 04/09/13 08:14 AM

twobob,

My furnace is simply made from fire bricks around an 18" length of 1/4" wall thickness steel pipe. The end of the steel pipe in the furnace is around 1" from the fire brick back.

I have two cross bars inside the pipe to sit the barrels on to keep things flat and off the inside of the red hot pipe. When I assemble the furnace I set up the steel pipe so these cross bars are fairly level, perfect is not necessary but they need to be reasonably level.

The heat source is simply an Oxy/LP heating torch placed in the end, blowing onto the side/bottom of the steel tube about 2-3" from the end inside the fire brick structure.
My furnace is simple, easy to dis-assemble and store out of the way and certainly effective.

To operate, the furnace built and the heating torch lit, and the barrels are prepared as required with plenty of flux and plenty of the the silver solder laid on top of the barrels in the grooves formed by the barrel and top extension.

When the steel pipe is a nice and red, the wired together barrels/shoe-lump/top extension, prepared with the flux and silver solder mentioned previously, are slid with the lump down, into the pipe, to almost he back end of the pipe (I forgot to mention I mark the barrels with a marker where the outer end of the steel pipe comes so the barrels don't go in too far, you don't want the naked flame on the barrels etc)

After the bits are in place in the red hot pipe furnace, just keep an eye on it, it won't take overly long and it will be up to the correct temperature and the solder will melt. So long as your joint was well fitted and clinically clean when it was fluxed and wired together, capillary action will draw the molten solder completely and nicely through the whole joint. Watch, and as soon as the solder runs, turn off the heat and let the whole lot cool for half an hour or so.

There is the heat control. As soon as the solder runs it has reached the correct temp of 1205 degrees F, so by turning off the heat, the metal simply cannot over heat. After the half an hour or so, carefully remove the barrels, they will still be very hot, and set them aside on some parallel bars to cool completely.

It sounds like my process is similar to the one on the DVD you mentioned

I used to cut the chambers to about 30 thou short before I joined the barrels/shoe-lump etc, so yes, I did the coat chambers and half-way down the bores with an anti scaling solution.

Best
ALEX

--------------------

Details matter!


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: alexbeer]
      #235096 - 04/09/13 10:06 AM

Alex,

That's great information.

I saw no need for this process to be complicated and certainly would save alot of time compared to building a monoblock.

I always considered a monoblock to be the strongest way to attach barrels to an action. However a shoelump/demiblock is obviously strong enough as I've seen Heym (?) making a double .600 with this method......though a .600 is a relatively low pressure cartridge.

You're using 1205 degree silver solder. Is Hiforce 44 inadequate for this job ??? The assumption being a great fit between barrells and shoelump.

My interest in this is that if you use 1205 F solder/Hiforce 44 for the shoelump and Force 44 for the ribs/sights/forend hangar/front sling swivel mount then you should be able to hot blue the barrell assembly..............or is this blasphemy ????

What solder and flux do you use ???

The Holland dvd showed flame in direct contact with the barrells/shoelump. If I recall correctly.

By keeping the flame off the barrells/shoelump does this cut down on the incidence of scale ??

Great tip on the anti scaling solution.

Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge and experience on this. Thereby demistifying the process even further.


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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #235097 - 04/09/13 10:41 AM

Alex,

I've read the links and previous posts by yourself and Ron Vella and pretty much answered my questions for me.

With the exception of .......do you consider Hi Temp Force 44 ( I meant) inadequate for this job ???

Further if you use 1205 F silver for the shoelump and Hi Temp Force 44 for the quarter rib/forend hangar/front sling swivel mount and Force 44 for the ribs then you should be able to hot blue the barrell assembly.

Many thanks to yourself and Ron Vella for sharing your knowledge/experience in this matter.


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transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 131
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #235098 - 04/09/13 11:35 AM

Twobob;

Holland in their film of their barrel shop have a similar temporary muffle as Alex describes, except that the Holland iron/steel pipe is only about 6-8 inches long, and of course there is a lot of flame that can be seen around such a short pipe-- making it appear as if the barrels are in direct contact with the flame.

However, Verney-Carron uses a direct flame. Their video explains how they do it, but one needs to be fluent in French--I am not.

Regards;
Steve


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Demiblock , Shoelump or ? [Re: transvaal]
      #235106 - 04/09/13 02:21 PM

Steve,

I recall that Holland's furnace setup was short.

You're explanation of the furnace/flame sounds reasonable to me.

It'll give me reason to watch the dvd again.

I'll take a look at the VC site but I'm grappling with English so I'll just have to mute the commentary.

Keeping the flame off the solder/braze sounds like it has very real benefits as per what Alex and Ron etc say so it looks like "the go".

Thanks for your observations.

Peter


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