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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27687
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 9.3x57]
#380963 - 06/12/23 03:46 AM

Those ballistics sound familiar to me for the 72mm case, Rod. Not sure about the 9.3x57R version though.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 9.3x57]
#380967 - 06/12/23 04:02 AM

the old 360BPE with a 57 mm long case was the original, first german modification was 9,3x72R to get more black powder into the cartridge. the 9,3x82R was another update to get 1 gramm BP more.
when smokless powder arive the longer case was obsolete, also the old 57 mm long case could be loaded higher with nitro than the 82 mm case with BP( in theory) but they got all more less nitro for black powder loads.
the 9,3x82R still survive because there were a lot of old combination gun still in use.

the short rifle barrel was a strange idea. see once a drilling with two common shotgun barrels and a rifle barrel underneath. the rifle barrel was just a little bit longer than the stock and you were able to shoot with the drilling hold your hand on the muzzle of the rifle barrel.
people don't thought such a ticking time bomb was worth to have maybe 1 pound less.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 9.3x57]
#380968 - 06/12/23 04:15 AM

Quote:

* Tho the gun savvy Nansen equipped himself and Johansen on their amazing "Farthest North" expedition w/ x57R/.360's and used them effectively on Polar Bear and walrus! His combination guns being 20 ga - 9.3x57R/.360...a genius choice really, allowing a large amount of ammo to be carried on their sleds. He lost his .577 over the side of a small boat early in the expedition!

the space/weight of this little cartridges could be the main reason to select this calibers for a expedition. iirc, the eskimo on greenland shoot the polar bears with .222 rem at point blank range (10-15 meter)on the point because the bear shows no fear and clome close. you have to trust rifle and ammo for such a hunt, of course.

there were other versions 9,3x70R , 9,3x80R, the 9,3x72R had iirc, 6 different but very close versions alone before the cartridge was normalised. the old 9,3x57R 360, the german version of the british original, became than obscure because the 9,3x72R ruled. it is one of the cartridges with an own name "Försterpatrone" forester cartridge because it was the common rifle cartridge for the not so expensive drilling of the forester who had more a tool than a best gun.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5561
Loc: United States

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#380970 - 06/12/23 04:24 AM

Quote:

you were able to shoot with the drilling hold your hand on the muzzle of the rifle barrel.
people don't thought such a ticking time bomb was worth to have maybe 1 pound less.

Ah ha!!

Very good point & a concern worthy of consideration!!

FWIW: Here just north of me at a machinegun shoot a fellow shooting a MAC-9 (very short bbl) slipped his hand over the muzzle as he fired a burst and shot his fingers off.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 9.3x57]
#383085 - 05/03/24 05:08 AM

HVA Mod 52B Kaliber 16/12,7x44R https://auctionet.com/de/3338081-hva-mod-52b-kaliber-16-12-7x44r-ref-nein-123178

belgian combination gun 16/450 Express (11,4 mm)https://auctionet.com/de/3269009-hersteller-kal-16-11-4-450-express-72440-se2046710
could be a .450 BPE

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#384606 - 01/05/24 01:08 AM

16 ga +maybe a 9,3x72R combination gun with an unknown action https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1046184087

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 740
Loc: West UK

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#384618 - 01/05/24 10:33 AM

Lancaster - Interesting combination gun/rifle

Thanks for posting this and the other stuff

TH

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: TH44]
#384622 - 01/05/24 11:53 AM

yes, this is an very interesting action I have seen the first time. no doubt made in the Suhl/Zella Mehlis area

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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luv2safari
.400 member

Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#385126 - 05/06/24 12:51 PM

It looks like a Master gunmaker was showing off. What a beautiful and unusual piece!

Thank you for sharing it with me.

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Hunt with Class and Classics

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40641
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#385131 - 05/06/24 07:24 PM

Perhaps similar to this action

Manufrance.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=383729&an=0&page=0&vc=1

Similar design anyway.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4406
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: NitroX]
#385146 - 06/06/24 05:57 AM

That timber is exquisite!

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luv2safari
.400 member

Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1413
Loc: United States

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 93x64mm]
#385370 - 21/06/24 02:50 PM

All of it is.

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Hunt with Class and Classics

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#387094 - 06/10/24 06:02 PM

love those little combination guns https://www.galeriedemars.fr/chasse/1177...ion-categorie_d

6,5x52R (25-35 Win) + 28/65 by Anschütz in Zella Mehlis

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#387224 - 13/10/24 08:36 PM

Joh. Kaletzky Wien 24765 +7x72R
https://www.gebrauchtwaffen-spezialist.de/Langwaffen-oxid/Hahnbockbuechsflinte.html

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#391133 - 13/04/25 11:06 PM

not realy combination guns but here is a place- two nice belgian made 11mm pinfire revolver rifles

https://auctionet.com/de/4031714-lefaucheux-revolvergewehr-kaliber-11-mm-stift-auf-nr-fehlt

https://auctionet.com/de/4031694-lefauch...he-nr-er-ist-73

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#392137 - 21/06/25 02:29 PM

Drilling 16/65+9,3x72R, sold by Kern/Nürnberg, made by Emil Barthelmes (EB) Zella-Mehlis 1910
https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=20001905

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4406
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#392145 - 22/06/25 05:30 AM

Rather unusual action!
I'm assuming the underlever work the action & the lever which cartridge 16g or 9.3?

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85lc
.400 member

Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1186
Loc: Georgia, USA

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 93x64mm]
#392146 - 22/06/25 05:52 AM

Lancaster, Thanks for posting.

That is a very nice Val Kern action drilling. They are straingt line actions.

I had one in 16x16x8x57/360.

DGJ has a nice writeup on this type action in their Volumn 6, Issue 1 (Spring 1995).

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RB

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9509
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: 93x64mm]
#392151 - 22/06/25 02:13 PM

Quote:

Rather unusual action!
I'm assuming the underlever work the action & the lever which cartridge 16g or 9.3?

well, I see no safety.
could be the lever is the safety. first position would be the doublegun barrels and when you move it one step further you come to rifle + shotgun barrel?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1804
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: lancaster]
#392167 - 23/06/25 01:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Rather unusual action!

well, I see no safety.

The basic design of this action is a quite old one, already shown and described in A.Zimmer’s 1868 book on then modern hunting guns. Daw imported such German made guns to England where they were known as “Daw’s hammerless guns”. Emil Barthelmes, Zella-Mehlis, used this action on drillings he made for Kern, Nuremberg most often until about WW1. He replaced the original C-shaped mainsprings with coil springs around the strikers.
The safety on these guns is quite unusual. It’s a bar and a disc with holes for the strikers set left to right in the breechface. Here are two photos of two other such Barthelmes/Kern drillings. The first one shows the “Fire” position, the bar pushed to the right. The second one is on “Safe”, crossbar pushed over, blocking the strikers. Note, on these two dillings the safeties operate in opposite directions.
The locks are cocked by the movement of the opening underlever.

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4406
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Combination Gun of the Week [Re: kuduae]
#392169 - 23/06/25 06:22 AM

Ah Ha!
Seeing those 3 protrusions from the long rear of the action I thought that it had coil springs powered being so much in line.
The safety mechanism got me though - certainly blocks ANY potential primer from being hit!
Simple but very effective!
Thanks kuduae - love your explanations of these marvellous old creations, still going now over 100 years young with tender loving care.
Always appreciate your timing mate, when we're all stumped, your spot on as always to help!

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