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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
DR build
      #231557 - 24/06/13 07:37 AM

Shotgun actions for DR build ?

I have a couple of actions that i am thinking of converting to DR, but first need to ask if somebody can suggest if my choice of Caliber is OK ? Actions are Older AYA 20 gauge Magnum, ejectors, and BAYARD Hammer double 16 gauge, Greener crossbolt, backlocks, for conv. to 45LC cartridge. AYA is Hammerless, bushed f-pins for rimmed cartridge.What cartridge would that one be best suited for ? Both shotguns are tight on face.


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twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231564 - 24/06/13 10:43 AM

savage,

I'll provide what is pretty standard advice with these conversions.

Get hold of Ellis Brown's book "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions".

It will answer alot of your questions.

Yes this is shameless promotion of the book.......but I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was a great book. I'm earning no money from promoting the book.

There are calculations in the book to determine the stresses applicable to actions, generically speaking, that will help you determine appropriate cartridges for your actions.


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: twobobbwana]
      #231567 - 24/06/13 12:58 PM

bwana

Thanks for your answer,you are wiling to help me, and its so nice of you. I do have book, and Video from Mr. Brown, its great help and full of tips. I was gonna go to Colorado last August to meet him and others,but things didn't work out. I was asking for suggestion, if any of you did use AYA 20 gauge Magnum actions before ? My goal was to find out if i could build 405 Win. on it ? 405 is not on his list of calibers. This is my first build, so i am going to do it safe way. That's why i am going with 45 Long Colt on Belgian BAYARD hammer 16 gauge action. 45 LC is legal deer hunting cartridge here in Indiana. I built many Mauser's and am familiar with most problems they present, when building big-bore rifle, using Mauser actions. This build, however is something very new to me, and all help i get will help me. Thanks again, and i hope all is well in your neck of woods.


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kamilaroi
.400 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231568 - 24/06/13 02:19 PM

Engineer's Blue is your friend.

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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: kamilaroi]
      #231584 - 24/06/13 11:32 PM

kamilaroi

Thanks, you can say that again !


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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231601 - 25/06/13 06:05 AM

I took Tech. class in gunsmithing school, from W. Ellis Brown, prior to his writing first edition of his book, and have converted a number of shotguns. I have a 20 ga. mag., sidelock, by one of he Spanish makers, beautifully converted to 9.3x74R by Francotte, so that pretty much shows that even professional big time builders did such conversions, and I have done similar conversions myself, so my opinion is that your 20 ga. is suitable for 9.3 x 74R or anything with similar rearward breech pressure thrust, while leaving adequate comparable chamber steel thickness. Further, the barrels at breech on your 20 gauge, are simply too slim to do a conversion to .405 Winchester; I wouldn't even do it on a 16 gauge frame, but think 12 gauge is more suitable, about perfect, allowing for needed weight between the hands, when in shooting position. As Brown said in his book, shotgun actions are much less robust and lighter than double rifle actions, so that must be given careful consideration always. Your Belgian 16 gauge will easily handle the .45 LC, but is too small for conversion to .450 nitro--much better to go with 12 gauge for that. Remember, the very first conversion that Brown did, was a 16 gauge German Simson action to .450 NE, and he told me that he would never do that again, it is simply too light in weight, requiring the barrels to be too large in diameter, too heavy, forcing too much barrel weight away from the frame, where weight should be. The conversion worked, held up fine, and has shot a good number or rounds now, but barrels are entirely too heavy for overall rifle.

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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #231605 - 25/06/13 07:51 AM

doubleriflejack


Yes, i read it in his book, thanks. I agree with you, of course. This AYA 20 gauge Magnum is sweet shooting 3" gun, has ejectors and single mechanical trigger (not recoil-activated), Love it. so i guess here we go... another 45 Long Colt double rifle with scope, this time. It already has bushed f-pins. So for 405 i should use 12 gauge frame. OK, got it, AYA 12 gauge made for SEARS, back in 60s i think, very nice condition, color case still 90%, but no Greener cross bolt. Is it candidate for 405 build ?


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231649 - 25/06/13 11:55 PM

doubleriflejack

I found better shotguns then ones i was thinking of using for Double Rifle conversion. Merkel 12 gauge, JPSauer&sohn 12 gauge. Ellis used Simson 16 gauge and didnt like it. So naw, my choice's are 450-400 NE or 450-3.25"NE Winchester 405 included in this group. Dave Mason reamers are here for these 3 calibers. What do you think, which caliber, what Shotgun ?
All of you DR builders are welcome to suggest what you would build ?


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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231665 - 26/06/13 05:29 AM

Regarding your questions, my opinions are as follows:

16 gauge frame size would work for conversion to .450/.400, but 12 gauge is still preferable, because you want to have completed rifle which balances well, with most weight between hands when holding it for firing, thus 12 gauge is still best for this caliber. 16 gauge is more suitable for 9.3 x 74R, .303 British, or similar. 20 gauge mag. 3" shotgun is suitable for 9.3x74R, as explained above; my original conversion by Francotte proving that point, giving a very slim, trim, lightweight 9.3 that is still comfortable to shoot, though 16 gauge gives a slightly heavier 9.3x74R; even more comfortable to shoot--more control of recoil.

12 gauge is most preferable for .405, .450/.400, and even more so for .450 3" or 3 1/4"; but is too light, too small, for conversions to .500. Good old 1960s-1970s vintage Spanish 10 ga. 3.5" mags. with Greener crossbolt are suitable for .577 full nitro, but a bit too heavy for conversion to .500 NE. I once measured carefully, the action of a great old British boxlock .577 N.E., and found it to be almost identical in size, except for depth below watertable, to these Spanish boxlock 10 ga. mag. actions. I have now made four conversions on them to .577 NE successfully, and know a good gunsmith friend who has done same conversions on them. Ellis Brown almost exclusively, I think, has used German shotgun conversions, successfully, and I have done many myself. My last one was 12 ga, Sauer to .500/.416 Rigby, a caliber I have come to love. Thus, your 12 ga. Merkel or Sauer would be especially suitable as specified here. Your 12 ga. Aya less so, due to fact that it has no third fastner-no crossbolt. It may work, but may not over time hold up as well as good German action with crossbolt. I have never used a shotgun action for conversion, that had no crossbolt, so I cannot for sure speak with certainty about their use. As Brown explains in his book, a crossbolt is good insurance for more structural integrity on an already compromised shotgun action to double rifle conversion, especially on heavy recoiling calibers. One simply cannot compare a modern alloy steel action frame having no crosbolt on double rifle, with a classic old shotgun action frame made from mild steel (which most were made from), having no crossbolt--that is mixing apples with oranges. Modern alloy steel, having many times the structural strength of common mild steel, needs no crossbolt, now well proven over time. This isn't true at all with old actions made from mild steel, usually color case hardened---the case hardening adds very little or more likely NO structural strength to such actions.


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #231670 - 26/06/13 09:55 AM

doubleriflejack

Thanks for all your help. When i start this build, i will take pictures of this process to share with all of you. Any other suggestions ? Ron did a great 9,3x74 build, he's got it all figured out. I will have to ask him, also a TON of Q's, LOL. My gratitude


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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231774 - 28/06/13 07:21 AM

excellent stuff, thanks for the words Jack.

Is there as strong predictor of action strength by brand or model? I don't have Ellis's book yet but I've been looking at Baikal's a lot lately for a cheapish base to start from.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=349918592

Not a bad price, but I have no idea what its tolerances are like.


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231786 - 28/06/13 09:59 AM

ckhobart

Baikal 45-70 and 30-06 are good enough to have fun with , i have 45-70 and it shoots OK. But for DR build, find German JPSauer , Simson or Merkel 12 gauge and you won't be sorry.Some others with double underlugs and Greener crossbolt are ok olso. First buy Ellis Brown's book and video, and read-read-read sloooooooooow till you understand it. Good luck, and smile when you think of your own Double Rifle.


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Ckhobart
.275 member


Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231794 - 28/06/13 05:00 PM

Quote:

ckhobart

Baikal 45-70 and 30-06 are good enough to have fun with , i have 45-70 and it shoots OK. But for DR build, find German JPSauer , Simson or Merkel 12 gauge and you won't be sorry.Some others with double underlugs and Greener crossbolt are ok olso. First buy Ellis Brown's book and video, and read-read-read sloooooooooow till you understand it. Good luck, and smile when you think of your own Double Rifle.




I shall. The amount of technical documentation I've read and the books/papers I've read for school have me well prepared for tedium.


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Ckhobart
.275 member


Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231796 - 28/06/13 05:07 PM

So, would it be better from the standpoint of an amateur gunsmith to buy something like a Baikal and try to modify it or start from scratch from a stronger receiver, as you suggested?

Time I have. Not rich, but we get project money from time to time


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Ckhobart
.275 member


Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231797 - 28/06/13 05:10 PM

PS: Merkels are just... gorgeous

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Ckhobart
.275 member


Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231798 - 28/06/13 05:12 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=349058653

more reasonably priced but so much less beautiful. Still a nice looking firearm.


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231808 - 28/06/13 09:57 PM

Ckhobart

There you go, you found nice one, but its gonna sell for much more then $333. That one was made 7-1951, good post War gun. But you need to play with DR, like Baikal before you think about project like DR shogun conversion. Baikal is strong built finished DR, you don't need to do anything but shoot it. Just do it, you will love it, i do. I was shooting my Sabatti 45-70 yesterday, what a blast.


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Ckhobart
.275 member


Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231837 - 29/06/13 05:33 AM

Quote:

Ckhobart

There you go, you found nice one, but its gonna sell for much more then $333. That one was made 7-1951, good post War gun. But you need to play with DR, like Baikal before you think about project like DR shogun conversion. Baikal is strong built finished DR, you don't need to do anything but shoot it. Just do it, you will love it, i do. I was shooting my Sabatti 45-70 yesterday, what a blast.




Figured it'd be a fair bit more than that for a Simson haha! But I'll ponder your advice. I do really want to get a Baikal, even if its just for tearing it apart and getting more experience with double guns.

For this year's deer hunt I'm going to be using a B/A though I think, shooting hill to hill in Nevada is usually a 300+ yard affair.


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relics6165
.224 member


Reged: 15/12/12
Posts: 26
Loc: USA
Re: DR build [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231846 - 29/06/13 10:06 AM

Ckhobart:

I have always thought one of these would make a good double project starter:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=349616031

Greener crossbolt, side clips, cocking indicators, and a busted stock, all rolled into one nice neat little package........made 12/64.

HTH


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savage458
.275 member


Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: DR build [Re: relics6165]
      #231853 - 29/06/13 12:30 PM

Ckhobart
I saw it. Look close at rib extension (Greener cross bolt) ... see engraving filed off, and lose fit around it. Could be that somebody hammered it and filed off and sanded hammer marks. That is what i see, but i could be wrong. I want to see rib extension very tight fit in its slot for project like DR conversion. Lose fit could mean that gun was shot a lot, with full power loads. If heat treat and draw-back was not "Just right" the metal is bit softer then it should be. Full power loads then hammer hinge pin and locking lug area (Greener cross bolt is part of it) to the point that it become lose. My shotguns are super tight in that "Greener cross bolt" area. Remember that DR barrel's are rifled, and that changes everything. Read about all these point's in Ellis Brown's book.


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Ckhobart
.275 member


Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: DR build [Re: savage458]
      #231863 - 29/06/13 06:07 PM

Quote:

Ckhobart
I saw it. Look close at rib extension (Greener cross bolt) ... see engraving filed off, and lose fit around it. Could be that somebody hammered it and filed off and sanded hammer marks. That is what i see, but i could be wrong. I want to see rib extension very tight fit in its slot for project like DR conversion. Lose fit could mean that gun was shot a lot, with full power loads. If heat treat and draw-back was not "Just right" the metal is bit softer then it should be. Full power loads then hammer hinge pin and locking lug area (Greener cross bolt is part of it) to the point that it become lose. My shotguns are super tight in that "Greener cross bolt" area. Remember that DR barrel's are rifled, and that changes everything. Read about all these point's in Ellis Brown's book.




Thanks for the advice! will do


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