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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby
#23125 - 02/01/05 02:54 AM

Great heaps of praised are lavished on the 416 Rigby because it can do the 2400 at very low pressure as compared to the 416 Rem.

Why don't we see the same thing happening with the 458 Lott busting it arse with compressed loads to do 2300 f/s second when the 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota and 460 Wby will do the 2300 with what amounts to reduced loads. The 450 Rigby and Dakota also do away with the belted case of the 458 Lott

Ditto for the 375 H&H Vs the 375 RUM and 378 Wby with reduced loads. The 375 RUM also does away with the belted case of the H&H

Mike

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vapodog
.300 member

Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Mike375]
#23140 - 02/01/05 05:46 AM

Mike,
ssshhhhh....quiet...... someone might actually hear you making sense. This pressure thing is a ploy to keep the traditional and time honored, nostalgic cartridges alive.....and well we should...it's a tradition that adds so much to African hunting.... Double rifles, mauser action bolts and the cartridges used way back then.

Some things need to be preserved and held in high treasure and esteem.....among them is the .416 Rigby, the .375 H&H and the .404 Jeffery. Pressures don't really mean squat here and we all know it.....so let the battles rage on.

I need to go shoot my new .404 J now...see ya later.

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Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: vapodog]
#23162 - 02/01/05 11:47 AM

vapodog

I think if the 375 RUM was chambered in the standard M70 or the CZ there would be a lot more of them about the place.

Doubly so if it had been the 375 Winchester Magnum.

Mike

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vapodog
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Reged: 28/12/04
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Loc: Nebraska USA

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Mike375]
#23178 - 02/01/05 02:47 PM

In reply to:

I think if the 375 RUM was chambered in the standard M70 or the CZ there would be a lot more of them about the place.

Doubly so if it had been the 375 Winchester Magnum.

Mike,
Imteresting point....and I've thought about it long and hard.

The Model 70 is a much loved gun here in the states and IMO the only reason CZ is selling anything at all is because we can't get a .416 Rigby in a Model 70. The M-70 is chambered for the .404 now in the custom shop #3,000 list IIRC and I'm not sure a single one has been produced yet and I also understand the response has been high.

IMO if the M-70 was available for under $1,100 in .404 jeff, .416 Rigby, a .500 Jeff as well as a .375 H&H it's the only gun you'd see flying the Atlantic for DG from here......other than a few doubles...but that's just one man's opinion.

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cr500
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Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Mike375]
#23240 - 03/01/05 11:43 AM

I,m no guru on the subject ,but heres why I chose the 458 Lott (my chamber is actualy closer to the 458 Watts)
With a Brno 602/CZ550 ,it will fit 5-6 in the mag and one in the spout. Wider cases usualy hold 1 or more less.
I can get 2300 fps with 500 gn bullets with NO presure signs in an uncompressed load (84-85 gns 2208/Varget). These cases have only been neck sized the last 7 or 8 times and still chamber easily.
If I am in Arnhem land or Africa and the air lines lose my ammo or if I run out or misplace it ,458 Wins can be used and these will be easy to find ,if I cant get any 458 Lotts or 458 Watts.
Since the case is not too big ,it is easy to slightly down load it for 400 gn woodleighs or 300 Barnes for smaller game so I can use 1 gun if necassary.

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DaveJames
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Reged: 04/01/03
Posts: 66
Loc: Tidewater,Virginia

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Mike375]
#23287 - 03/01/05 07:19 PM

Mike, isn't there going to be a problem with down loading the 378W? Have always been told don't do it with the Weatherby calibere's

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"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: DaveJames]
#23290 - 03/01/05 07:53 PM

The 378 and 460 load down beautifully to 375 H&H and 458. In fact in my last 460 one of the most accurate loads was 85 grains of IMR 4064 and 500 grain Hornady for just over 2000 f/s. Another great load was 28 grains of Hi Score 700x and the 400 grain Speer. Did just over 1300 f/s and would hold 1 inch groups. No filler for either load.

However, where you run into a problem (in Asutralia but not America) is with loads that sit between 458 and those 1300 f/s loads. The culprit is the very long freebore and big case capacity which causes hangfires. You have a powder which I think is Accurate Arms 5544 (not sure of the number) and that powder is about 4227 burn rate but is bulky and flaky like shot gun powder and so solves the problem.

Mike

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cr500
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Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Mike375]
#23301 - 03/01/05 10:07 PM

We have to find some place who will import XMP5744.(is this the right number?) I tried a while ago ,but couldnt find any in OZ.

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Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: cr500]
#23302 - 03/01/05 11:00 PM

That souns like the number. Lots of blokes are using it in 416 Rigby..around the 50 grains

But if you have something like a 416 where you could jam the bullet into the rifling then 50 grains of 4227 or 2204 would probably be OK. No go with 378 or 460 as the rifling starts .75" from the case neck.

The problem with the flake shotgun/pistol powders is you are restricted to about 1300 f/s

I have used 60 grains of 4227 in a 460 with 400 grain Speer and filled the case with cotton wool and that worked but it looked like a snow storm.

Mike

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: cr500]
#23320 - 04/01/05 12:46 AM

cr500,

That pretty much sums up the big advantages of a Lott: magazine capacity, 458WM in a pinch, and 2300 fps.

When I had a Lott I got 2300 fps using IMR4320, but were very compressed loads.

Would you repeat your loads for Varget so there is no chance of typos? Are your loads compressed? Surely they must be but have never used Varget, so I am just guessing.

Thanks.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Will]
#23393 - 04/01/05 05:36 AM

Please Mike let me wallow in my ignorance, I'm still using a 375 H&H, 416 Rem and been doing so for ions..do not disturb my tranquility, just give me a friggen rifle and send me hunting, I care less what caliber within reason as long as it got some solids to stick in it...

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cr500
.300 member

Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 215
Loc: Singleton ,Australia

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Will]
#23441 - 04/01/05 10:59 AM

Will ,my loads with Varget (AR2208 realy) were 84-85 gns . 86gns will just touch the bottom of a 500gn bullet. My cases are 2.850 long 375 basic brass. Two days ago was the last time I shot the 500gn loads at 2300 fps and these definitley showed NO signs of presure at all. I have loaded up to 2350fps with 86gns and primers started to get a little flat but cases popped out easily. I usualy load down to 2250 fps as most of my shooting is at paper ,termite mounds and tree stumps , not buffalo or tuskers.

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Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: cr500]
#23457 - 04/01/05 03:47 PM

In general I have found the Australian ADI powders to give a little more velocity than IMR powders when the powder is slow for the cartridge and that would of course mean compressed loads.

Mike

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DaveJames
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Reged: 04/01/03
Posts: 66
Loc: Tidewater,Virginia

Re: 458 Lott Vs big 45s and 375 Vs 375 RUM/378 Wby [Re: Mike375]
#23469 - 04/01/05 08:17 PM

Mike, thanks, I have been using the xmp-5744 in my converted Ruger no-1 thats 450 3 1/4" nitro works well,, guess I will have to see about finding one of the "Lefties" in 460 or 378 to play with.

--------------------
"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
Sir Winston Churchill

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