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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Forum Photos & Archive

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DORLEAC
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Three interesting Original Mauser rifles.
      #231141 - 13/06/13 05:45 PM

The first one is an early, 1907 made, well preserved condition, 8mm.S, stocked to the muzzle rifle fitted with 24" barrel, tangent sight and double set trigger.
Such a rifle appears in KORN book "Mauser-Gewehre und Patente" on a reproduction of factory glass plate "Type XIIa – Blatt 2." Mauser Repetierpirschbüchse C.98/08.
I shall be glad if someone knows the marks punched under the bolt lever.

The two other 8x60 rifles are a 1931 made 24" barreled type B, with double set trigger and tangent sight and a 1934 made African model with 28" full octagonal barrel, single trigger and tangent sight.
Nothing really special about these two rifles except they are in untouched condition with mirror bore.
However, nothing less than surprising, these Mauser bear .321" (8,15) bore barrels (miked and so marked under the barrel), a dimension that falls between .318" and .323" and they shoot as well the 88 and "S" bullets.
Nevertheless, the accuracy delivered with .323" bullets is stunning and there isn't the least pressure sign.
Will be happy to hear your comments.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

Repetierpirschbüchse C.98/08





















Marks under the bolt lever



Marks under the grip



KORN book



Two 8x60 Mauser rifles























Proof and bore marks



Edited by CptCurl (30/12/13 03:58 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #231145 - 13/06/13 07:51 PM

Quote:

However, nothing less than surprising, these Mauser bear .321" (8,15) bore barrels (miked and so marked under the barrel), a dimension that falls between .318" and .323" and they shoot as well the 88 and "S" bullets.
Nevertheless, the accuracy delivered with .323" bullets is stunning and there isn't the least pressure sign.
Will be happy to hear your comments.

DORLEAC




That is not unusual. The differences between 8mmI (.318") and 8mmS (.323") cartridges as well as minimum bore dimensions were only fixed by the 1940 proof law. As both the Austro-Hungarian army in WW1 and P.O.Ackley in the 1950s found out, it is not the too tight bore that causes excessive pressure, but the chamber and throat dimensions. A max S cartidge in a minimum I chamber has neck and bullet wedged into the neck and throat area of the barrel. On firing the case neck cannot expand and release the bullet and the bullet, wedged into the barrel throat, cannot move until pressure has risen to danger levels. Mauser was well aware of this fact. In Jon Speed's first book, "Mauser OOSR" on page 275 a hand written table from the factory about sporting rifles bore dimensions is shown, dated December 9, 1926. 8mm bore dimensions given here are clearly I, .318" ones. But on the bottom of this table there is a footnote. Translated into modern English parlance it reads:
"The sporting rifles for the 8x57 and 8x60 cartridges get the throat for the S bullets, so that the S-type (.323") cartridges may also be used."


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mckinney
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: kuduae]
      #231146 - 13/06/13 07:54 PM

Thank you for the photos. Beautiful rifles, all of them, and excellent photography. I never tire of looking at these early Mausers. The full stocked rifle is my favorite of the group. Very elegant lines.

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DORLEAC
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: mckinney]
      #231147 - 13/06/13 08:50 PM

Thank you kuduae

You are a mine of information and it's always a pleasure to read your comments.
Have you an idea about the mark above the crowned B, stamped under the root of the early stuzen bolt lever ?

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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dons
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #231149 - 13/06/13 09:54 PM

Joel: 3 very nice Oberndorf's. I find the full stock rifle, known as the "Type G", to be the most interesting. These models are not often found in todays market. I have a similar factory Type G like yours, in the Type S configuration, that was made in 1932 and has some unusual features such as a butterknife bolt handle, rare 5X Hensoldt scope, special Bohler Antinit steel barrel, and chambered for 9.3x62 Magnum. I can email some photos if someone is willing to post them to the Forum.

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DORLEAC
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: dons]
      #231150 - 13/06/13 10:16 PM

dons,

Feel free to m@il the photo through our web site.
Thanks beforehand.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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dons
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #231153 - 14/06/13 12:28 AM

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/t423...jpg%5B/image%5D

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Huvius
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: dons]
      #231155 - 14/06/13 01:50 AM

I am not sure that the bolt handle on the first rifle isn't a replacement.
The knob is not very Oberndorf looking and there is no way the stamp at the root could be made with the bolt in its current configuration.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DORLEAC
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: Huvius]
      #231157 - 14/06/13 02:32 AM

Huvius,

The bolt is absolutely original to the rifle, not a replacement !...
It's numbered, perfectly stamped and marked, and more than that it's of the first type with slim gas holes and machined for retaining the pointed cocking piece.
I have already encountered early made rifles with that kind of knob that is correct for the period.
The slightly faded slow rust blue finish match the other parts of the rifle and the headspace is perfect.
I will publish photos showing more details of that bolt, firing pin and cocking piece as soon I will get some time left.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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bonanza
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #231163 - 14/06/13 06:22 AM

I like the Mauser and Springfield safety better than the Winchester style on my Dakota. Only problem is scope clearance.

--------------------


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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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tophet1
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: kuduae]
      #231164 - 14/06/13 07:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

However, nothing less than surprising, these Mauser bear .321" (8,15) bore barrels (miked and so marked under the barrel), a dimension that falls between .318" and .323" and they shoot as well the 88 and "S" bullets.
Nevertheless, the accuracy delivered with .323" bullets is stunning and there isn't the least pressure sign.
Will be happy to hear your comments.

DORLEAC




That is not unusual. The differences between 8mmI (.318") and 8mmS (.323") cartridges as well as minimum bore dimensions were only fixed by the 1940 proof law. As both the Austro-Hungarian army in WW1 and P.O.Ackley in the 1950s found out, it is not the too tight bore that causes excessive pressure, but the chamber and throat dimensions. A max S cartidge in a minimum I chamber has neck and bullet wedged into the neck and throat area of the barrel. On firing the case neck cannot expand and release the bullet and the bullet, wedged into the barrel throat, cannot move until pressure has risen to danger levels. Mauser was well aware of this fact. In Jon Speed's first book, "Mauser OOSR" on page 275 a hand written table from the factory about sporting rifles bore dimensions is shown, dated December 9, 1926. 8mm bore dimensions given here are clearly I, .318" ones. But on the bottom of this table there is a footnote. Translated into modern English parlance it reads:
"The sporting rifles for the 8x57 and 8x60 cartridges get the throat for the S bullets, so that the S-type (.323") cartridges may also be used."




Now that is VERY interesting to know. If I have it right, it explains people being able to shoot late ammo in earlier (.318') sporting rifles. Finn Aagaard was one personality in popular American literature that did ?


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pjaln
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: tophet1]
      #231168 - 14/06/13 09:55 AM

joel,,nice stuff...are the triggers strawed on the first gun or is it me??....paul

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DORLEAC
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: pjaln]
      #231175 - 14/06/13 03:39 PM

Yes, Paul, the triggers are straw colored and the bolt stop retains some of the original nitre blue.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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kuduae
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #231182 - 14/06/13 11:09 PM

Quote:


Have you an idea about the mark above the crowned B, stamped under the root of the early stuzen bolt lever ?
DORLEAC



Both marks under the bolthandle seem to support Huvius' suspicion. The shape of the "crown/B" mark is not the one of the commercial proofmark. also, I would expect a crown/U on a bolt instead. This crown/B stamp looks very much like a pre-WW1 military inspector's personal mark. The other mark is the lower Half of an also pre-WW1 military accceptance eagle, upper half obliterated when the bolt handle was bent. and, this bolt body and striker nut are indeed several years earlier than the 1907-8 made rifle. These bolt bodies with the narrow gas escape slits and the detent for the pointed cocking piece were made for a small-ring "Transition" action, pre- 1902. IMHO the rifle had lost the original bolt and came back to the factory for a replacement. The Mauser custom/repair shop then fitted a leftover bolt from the earlier, military test series and numbered it to the rifle, as they ever did. The former head of the Mauser sporting arms department, Walter Roell, continued to do so until the early 1960s. He had the original Mauser numbering stamps and not only continued the Mauser serial number range up into the 128 000s, but also whenever he rebarreled or restocked an older Mauser rifle, he habitually renumbered the replaced parts to the gun's original serial number.
BTW, that "holy grail" of collectors, "matching serial numbers" is no guarantee that a German gun, especially a military one, does still consist of the parts it left the factory with the first time. By regulations peacetime military armorers got the needed spare parts unnumbered. They had the prescribed numbering stamps. After fitting a new part to an existing gun they had to number the new replacement to the gun. Only late in WW1 they were allowed to cannibalize other guns, resulting in "mismatched numbers".


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kuduae
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: kuduae]
      #231183 - 15/06/13 12:23 AM

Quote:

Now that is VERY interesting to know. If I have it right, it explains people being able to shoot late ammo in earlier (.318') sporting rifles. Finn Aagaard was one personality in popular American literature that did ?



You are right, tophet 1. IIRC Finn Agaard for many years used an 8x60 normal (I bore, .318") B Mauser in his early Kenya years until the barrel was shot out. The only ammo he got was 8x60S H-jacketed loads, the highest pressure RWS loads that in 1940 set the maximum allowable pressure for 8x60S loads. He never noticed indications of excessive pressure. Nor do I when using 8x60S factory loads in my own 8x60 NORMAL marked B Mauser of 1934 vintage.
As I wrote, the legal difference between I and S bores was only fixed with the 1940 proof law. Before, different solutions were offered, even by the ammunition factories. Two lengthy quotes, sort of translated by myself:
1934 RWS handbook, page 38:
" If you want to shoot the thicker S loads from a rifle that was originally intended for the 8x57I or 8x57IR with long round nose bullets, don't fail to have your chamber and throat reworked by a gunsmith. Failing to do so may result in excessive pressure."
The Suhl and Zella-Mehlis gunmakers used their chambering reamers as long as possible, resharpening them several times. Without set minimum chamber dimensions this practice sometimes resulted in rather small chambers and throats. As long as a 8mm I cartridge slipped into the chamber and the thing stood proof, it was deemed ok.
The 1940 RWS handbook contains these suggestions:
"As in modern bolt action rifles rarely any accident is known, the rimless 8x57 and 8x60 cartridges will be loaded with S bullets (.323") only. Modern powders allow us to keep the pressure below dangerous levels without changing the ballistics. Other with the rimmed versions: As the rifle barrels of older drillings and combination guns are much thinner, there may be a danger here. So the old 8x57IR should be loaded only with I (.318") bullets in the future. The (then) rare S barrel guns may live with slightly diminished accuracy. The 8x60R should be loaded with S bullets only. This leaves just one problem, the 8x60RS MAGNUM loads. These loads should be sold only with prominent warnings on the package: "for S diameter , 7.89 / 8.20 mm barrels only!" The individual cartridges will be marked by a black primer and knurling of the rim."
So, if you want to use S, .323" bullets in your I bore M98 rifle, do these two checks:
take a case fired from your rifle, unresized of course. If a .323" S bullet easily slips in and out the neck, the neck area of your chamber is sufficiently wide. Next, check the bullet seating depth. The bullet should be able to move at least 5mm / .2" before it engages the rifling.


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DORLEAC
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: kuduae]
      #231199 - 15/06/13 09:48 PM

Thanks to all.
More detailed photos of the 1907 stutzen Mauser bolt.
Sincerely, I think that kuduae hypothesis is the good one. However, if a new bolt has been fitted, the job was done at Mauser factory, with new proofing and with all parts perfectly numbered and finished.
What remains most interesting in this story, it's that they have used an old transition bolt.
Also, for info, the two CIP sheets for the 8x60 and 8x60S.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com














CIP 8x60



CIP 8x60S



Edited by CptCurl (30/12/13 03:58 AM)


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brosteve
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #232936 - 26/07/13 05:31 AM

How did they obtain such a "blue" blue on the receivers? Special formula or procedure? Steve

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Nordmann
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #232938 - 26/07/13 06:46 AM

Always a sucker for a good Mauser. They just work "vorsprung durch technik"

I couldn't resist buying this one:-

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...l-mauser-638869

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James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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Claydog
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: dons]
      #232944 - 26/07/13 08:46 AM

Dons
If the 9.3x62 you mention is the one for sale on GI, there is not a day in the past 3 months I havn't looked at it.


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dons
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: Claydog]
      #233004 - 27/07/13 10:33 AM

Claydog....It IS the one on GI.

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themauserkid
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Re: Three interesting Original Mauser rifles. [Re: dons]
      #374237 - 19/02/23 08:32 AM

Not to dredge up an old thread, but I happened to read this over again, and there is an interesting point on the bolt of the type G. I entirely believe it to be original IMO. I largely collect JP Sauer and they are of course built on Oberndorf actions sold to the trade, and I’ve been noticing a trend on prewar guns. I’ve owned 3 maybe 4 with identical bolts to the transitional one shown here, with their utilization extending to at least 1911 Sauer production and possibly later. Again these are bolts numbered to actions that are produced well after the improved bolts came into usage, and so, obviously sat in stock somehow, possibly leftovers from a contract or some such.

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