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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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lancaster
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #390440 - 16/03/25 06:49 AM

HOLLAND & HOLLAND 'ROYAL' TOPLEVER HAMMERLESS ROOK & RABBIT RIFLE, serial no. 21178 smoothbored to .410
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/ful...465&image=2













circa 1900, 25in. turned octagonal to round nitro reproved barrel (in 1955, smoothbored from .250 semi-smooth bore rook), wave cut top-flat, rear sight removed and a dove-tail inserted, the adjacent flats engraved 'HOLLAND & HOLLAND. 98 NEW BOND ST. LONDON. WINNERS OF ALL THE 'FIELD' RIFLE TRIALS. 250 SEMI-SMOOTH BORE.',

what have they thought when drilled out this gem in the 1950s?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #390443 - 16/03/25 07:49 AM

They turned it into a 410 shotgun!
I don't know if I want to laugh or cry!


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390445 - 16/03/25 08:34 AM

What's worse, they turned the barrel round out past the forend.
Commonly done, but if the barrel was left alone, at least it could be lined to something nice again.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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lancaster
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Huvius]
      #390451 - 16/03/25 07:19 PM

it will allways be enough for a .22lr liner but this rifle comes into its own with .22 Hornet or .17 Hornet

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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rigbymauser
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390456 - 17/03/25 03:34 AM

Quote:

They turned it into a 410 shotgun!
I don't know if I want to laugh or cry!




I bang my head into to something everytime I see these ruined R&R rifles.


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85lc
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: rigbymauser]
      #390459 - 17/03/25 05:08 AM

That "conversion" is so very unfortunate. The rifle looks like it had been in great shape. It is different (to me) if the rifle is in poor condition.

I have seen several rook rifles that have been modifieed. In fact, I have a Holland that had been a 360 rook and is now a 22LR. It wasn't that expensive so I bought it solely as a shooter.

The same butchery happens to other vintage rifles. I remember seeing a very nice double rifle that some idiot proudly had ported.

Well having money doesn't mean having good taste.

--------------------
RB


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rigbymauser
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: 85lc]
      #390461 - 17/03/25 05:46 AM

Quote:

That "conversion" is so very unfortunate. The rifle looks like it had been in great shape. It is different (to me) if the rifle is in poor condition.

I have seen several rook rifles that have been modifieed. In fact, I have a Holland that had been a 360 rook and is now a 22LR. It wasn't that expensive so I bought it solely as a shooter.

The same butchery happens to other vintage rifles. I remember seeing a very nice double rifle that some idiot proudly had ported.

Well having money doesn't mean having good taste.




Not only this, This very Rook rifle was the H&H Model Royal. The most expensive of them all. A gentlemans best gun.


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DarylS
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: rigbymauser]
      #390463 - 17/03/25 06:53 AM

I had a .410 - worse bloody excuse for a shotgun there is.
I would put a limit on 28 bore as being the smallest effective gun for hunting anything but small birds.
I sold it after 3 years of poor results on grouse using 7 1/2's and 6's, 2 1/2" and 3".
I didn't try #4 shot, which I am told makes the .410 usable.
Lining that single shot in .22 LR would make it at least usable.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Claydog
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: DarylS]
      #390468 - 17/03/25 09:00 AM

Happened to many rook rifles when they went out of fashion. Used a .410 at a clay shoot recently and was somewhat surprised how it went. Much better than expected. I would shoot the shit out of that Holland as a .410 on quail.

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Marrakai
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Claydog]
      #390472 - 17/03/25 09:44 AM

Usually the conversion was done to allow the retention of the firearm following the UK's legislative "reforms" of 1968. Shotguns could be kept on a certificate, however rifles required a licence as I understand it. The issuing of licences was stringently controlled and many firearm owners avoided the trouble by having their rook rifles smooth-bored. Sadly, many paradoxes had their rifled chokes bored out at that time also.

I have a similar firearm in my collection, a .450 Rook converted to 28-bore shotgun, with expertly removed rear sight block. Possibly made by John Thomas, as it bears his triangle patent mark that appears on the flats of many (most?) of Holland & Holland's top-lever hammerless rook rifles, perhaps even the one pictured above!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Claydog
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Marrakai]
      #390474 - 17/03/25 10:14 AM

In this Holts Auction review they talk about it. Simon Reinhold says the 22LR killed the rook rifle stone dead and people started boring them out to .410. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfukpZXZE84.Don't get me wrong I wouldn't have a clue. Just going off what he said. There is a beautiful matched pair in original condition at 1hr 12 worth looking at it.

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Marrakai
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Claydog]
      #390476 - 17/03/25 11:47 AM

Love that matched pair! Thanks for the reminder, Clay. I had watched the start of that clip before, but didn't get that far before being dragged away...

No doubt the existence of the .22 Rimfire, and rifles so-chambered, was the ultimate reason for the smooth-boring, but I believe the catalyst for forcing such action on obsolete rook rifles, probably held as curios for decades, was the restrictive 1968 UK Firearms Act.

From our point of view today, it is certainly a tragedy.
...as is often the case for firearms legislation "reforms" perpetrated by overbearing police forces or self-serving politicians.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: DarylS]
      #390478 - 17/03/25 11:58 AM

Quote:

I had a .410 - worse bloody excuse for a shotgun there is.




I started shooting with a side by side .410 shotgun. As a kid I think I shot it well. It was quite tightly choked.

I'd like to use it more. Give it a try again.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #390479 - 17/03/25 12:32 PM



Quote:

HOLLAND & HOLLAND 'ROYAL' TOPLEVER HAMMERLESS ROOK & RABBIT RIFLE, serial no. 21178 smoothbored to .410
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/ful...465&image=2













circa 1900, 25in. turned octagonal to round nitro reproved barrel (in 1955, smoothbored from .250 semi-smooth bore rook), wave cut top-flat, rear sight removed and a dove-tail inserted, the adjacent flats engraved 'HOLLAND & HOLLAND. 98 NEW BOND ST. LONDON. WINNERS OF ALL THE 'FIELD' RIFLE TRIALS. 250 SEMI-SMOOTH BORE.',

what have they thought when drilled out this gem in the 1950s?





It looks like a lovely gun or rifle.

It looks like a very nice single shot 410 shotgun.

I understand the dislike of it being turned into a shotgun from a rook rifle.

If you can't buy, find, source loaded ammunition, or if it is difficult to reload, for your rook rifle, it's a wall hanger. Useless. Yes the .22 RF probably killed off the profitability of ammunition makers making rook rifle cartridges. Making the rook rifles useless and obsolete.

One can of course reload rook ammunition. But how many actually reload, and then how many reload ROOK cartridges?
Nitro Express shooters often must reload. USA shooters often can buy some cartridges. The Price!!! As a youth I had to reload any centre fire ammo to afford shooting it. Started with the .222.

I admit, I'd never even heard of a rook rifle before the NitroExpress forums. A British term. We had rabbit rifles. I barely know what the British used "rook rifles" for? Those little black feathered birds squwarking in old ruins? Why shoot them?

What are the typical ballistics of a rook rifle? Originally black powder? Quickly became obsolete?

Was a .22 Hornet a rook rifle?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Claydog
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Marrakai]
      #390481 - 17/03/25 01:06 PM

Quote:

Love that matched pair! Thanks for the reminder, Clay. I had watched the start of that clip before, but didn't get that far before being dragged away...
.



Yeah they are something special. To remain in that condition and together is pretty rare. Did you see the .303 prototype rifle.


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Marrakai
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Claydog]
      #390482 - 17/03/25 06:18 PM

When next I get time to relax in front of the big screen I'll watch it right through!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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85lc
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Claydog]
      #390493 - 18/03/25 07:25 AM

Quote:

Happened to many rook rifles when they went out of fashion. Used a .410 at a clay shoot recently and was somewhat surprised how it went. Much better than expected. I would shoot the shit out of that Holland as a .410 on quail.




SxS 410s have become quite popular for hunting quail in the SE USA. Most shots are fairly close (say 20 yds) and the little gun works well, at leat for good shots and gives an excuse for those that are poor shorts.

--------------------
RB


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: 85lc]
      #390511 - 18/03/25 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Happened to many rook rifles when they went out of fashion. Used a .410 at a clay shoot recently and was somewhat surprised how it went. Much better than expected. I would shoot the shit out of that Holland as a .410 on quail.




SxS 410s have become quite popular for hunting quail in the SE USA. Most shots are fairly close (say 20 yds) and the little gun works well, at leat for good shots and gives an excuse for those that are poor shorts.




If mine was not so tightly choked I'd give it a try on quail. If one could find 8 shot shells.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: 85lc]
      #390524 - 19/03/25 02:48 AM

I understand your contention about poor shots, however the grouse I lost wounded, were road shot at ranges out to 25 yards. On the ground, centered in the pattern and lost way too many runnaways. Bowl them over, up they get and run.
Maybe BC grouse are considerably tougher than your little quail.
I was told that #4's worked better. It's almost as hard to find #4's as it would be to find #2's or BB's in .410 ammo, as not likely anyone would attempt those sizes.
I had better results when I was loading my own .4120 ammo in .444 Marlin cases, with 12gr. Unique and 1/2 ounce of 6's. A .44 gas check is used as overshot wad. The patterns were super, good killing patterns to 30yards from my daughter's .410's. I had opened the chokes a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: NitroX]
      #390631 - 22/03/25 06:01 AM

Quote:



I understand the dislike of it being turned into a shotgun from a rook rifle.

If you can't buy, find, source loaded ammunition, or if it is difficult to reload, for your rook rifle, it's a wall hanger. Useless. Yes the .22 RF probably killed off the profitability of ammunition makers making rook rifle cartridges. Making the rook rifles useless and obsolete.





It must have more to do with changes in the law.

This 1895 was bored out to 410 from 303 British!!

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/aucti...f1-b28e012c7730

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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lancaster
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Huvius]
      #390674 - 23/03/25 08:59 PM

very depressive, the win 95 is rare in 303 Brit.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #390847 - 01/04/25 04:15 PM

George Gibbs Farqharson Action .22LR Sporting Rifle
https://hindmanauctions.com/auctions/6312-arms-armor-and-militaria/lot/275







.22 LR. 26" barrel length. SN: 18566. Blued metal refinish to barrel with casehardened finish to the frame largely faded to silver set in walnut semi-pistol grip stock with fine multipoint checkering to wrist and forend mounting a checkered steel buttplate with sunburst and scroll engraving to the upper screw, and checkering over the lower. Single shot falling block Farquharson action rifle mounting rear notch and front bead sights in addition to a tang mounted Lyman rear aperture sight marked PAT. JAN. 20. 79. MAY 6. 84. Left side of the frame is engraved GEORGE GIBBS/BRISTOL within fine English scroll engraving consisting of spiral scrollwork with wheat chaff borders and Arabesque embellishments. Right frame duplicates the engraving on the left with rose and scroll taking the place of the maker's mark on the right. Barrel address reads GEORGE GIBBS. BRISTOL, & 33 SAVILE ROW, LONDON. W. Barrel is struck with two caliber marks on each side, both reading .22 L.R., the latter followed by British smokeless powder firing proofs, and Birmingham proof markings. Top of the frame shows action number 918 with the tang engraved 18566, and the right barrel marked B5905. The barrel was relined to convert it to 22 LR, and the original Nitro proof markings show a partially removed 6.5 mm marking. Extractors have been extended to work with 22 Long Rifle with ears attached by brass brazing. Rare sliding safety lever to the right frame has been reblued but retains crisp engraving and checkering. Barrel and butt mount sling loops with the toe of the stock mounting a silver oval plate that is not signed. Stock has been refinished with the metal fitting proud of the wood and rounded corners and edges.


Belgian .600 Nitro Express No. 5 Size Farquharson Rifle Made for the Comte De Lalaing
https://hindmanauctions.com/auctions/6312-arms-armor-and-militaria/lot/274

















.600 Nitro Express. 27.375" barrel length. SN: 7393. Polished bright metal finish to frame with blued barrel set in walnut semi-pistol grip stock with bordered multipoint checkering to the wrist and forend. Single shot falling block Farquharson action rifle bearing the {Seal of the Counts of Lalaing} to the upper barrel, indicating it was made for one of the ranking members of the famous de Lalaing family, an aristocratic line from Flanders whose history has been traced for approximately 1000 years. Left side of the frame is engraved with the maker marking Jansen fournisseurs/de sa Majeste le Roi/Bruxelles, roughly translating to Jansen Gunmakers of his Majesty the King of Brussels, and indicating the rifle was manufactured by Adolphe Jansen. Frame is engraved overall with floral and Arabesque designs above a beaded ground, along with sunburst engraving to the hinge pin and action screws. Further border scroll surrounds the bright muzzle. Sights consist of triple folding rear notches regulated to 100, 200, and 300 meters paired with a front bead sight. Item mounts front and rear sling loops, and features a tang safety with gold inlaid S safety marking. Rifle mounts an unmarked vented red rubber recoil pad with black and white spacers. Checkering crosses over the border in places, suggesting it was done by hand, and possibly reapplied at some point. Standard Belgian firing proofs to the barrel, frame, and breechblock. The Bright metal finish suggests this rifle was at one possibly polished for engraving but never case colored afterward.

The rifle was most likely originally manufactured by Auguste Francotte for Jansen, and further finished for its intended recipient, a common practice in gunmaking that persists to this day. In the case of this rifle, it was finished by the company of Adolphe Jansen, a Liege gunmaker who was credited as the gunmaker to the King of Brussels. In the case of this rifle, it was produced to the then Count de Lalaing, possibly Jacques III, who served as ambassador to the King of England, and well known for his love of travel, especially in the company of his wife and children. Given its caliber, this Farquharson pattern rifle was meant to serve him on an African safari. Originally introduced by W.J. Jeffery & Co., the enormous .600 Nitro Express cartridge was designed to take down the largest land animals on Earth. Its performance against anything from beyond this planet remains untested. {C&R}

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Claydog
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #390851 - 01/04/25 04:50 PM

That 22 is absolutely gorgeous. Pea rifles don't come any better.

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93x64mm
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: Claydog]
      #390857 - 01/04/25 09:07 PM

That 600 is just plain awesome!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Single Shot Rifles at Auction [Re: lancaster]
      #390858 - 01/04/25 10:13 PM

Quote:


Belgian .600 Nitro Express No. 5 Size Farquharson Rifle Made for the Comte De Lalaing
https://hindmanauctions.com/auctions/6312-arms-armor-and-militaria/lot/274



.600 Nitro Express. 27.375" barrel length. SN: 7393. Polished bright metal finish to frame with blued barrel set in walnut semi-pistol grip stock with bordered multipoint checkering to the wrist and forend. Single shot falling block Farquharson action rifle bearing the {Seal of the Counts of Lalaing} to the upper barrel, indicating it was made for one of the ranking members of the famous de Lalaing family, an aristocratic line from Flanders whose history has been traced for approximately 1000 years. Left side of the frame is engraved with the maker marking Jansen fournisseurs/de sa Majeste le Roi/Bruxelles, roughly translating to Jansen Gunmakers of his Majesty the King of Brussels, and indicating the rifle was manufactured by Adolphe Jansen. Frame is engraved overall with floral and Arabesque designs above a beaded ground, along with sunburst engraving to the hinge pin and action screws. Further border scroll surrounds the bright muzzle. Sights consist of triple folding rear notches regulated to 100, 200, and 300 meters paired with a front bead sight. Item mounts front and rear sling loops, and features a tang safety with gold inlaid S safety marking. Rifle mounts an unmarked vented red rubber recoil pad with black and white spacers. Checkering crosses over the border in places, suggesting it was done by hand, and possibly reapplied at some point. Standard Belgian firing proofs to the barrel, frame, and breechblock. The Bright metal finish suggests this rifle was at one possibly polished for engraving but never case colored afterward.

The rifle was most likely originally manufactured by Auguste Francotte for Jansen, and further finished for its intended recipient, a common practice in gunmaking that persists to this day. In the case of this rifle, it was finished by the company of Adolphe Jansen, a Liege gunmaker who was credited as the gunmaker to the King of Brussels. In the case of this rifle, it was produced to the then Count de Lalaing, possibly Jacques III, who served as ambassador to the King of England, and well known for his love of travel, especially in the company of his wife and children. Given its caliber, this Farquharson pattern rifle was meant to serve him on an African safari. Originally introduced by W.J. Jeffery & Co., the enormous .600 Nitro Express cartridge was designed to take down the largest land animals on Earth. Its performance against anything from beyond this planet remains untested. {C&R}




Some history even if it hasn't been used off planet?

What a rifle.

Nothing about what weight it is?

Quote:

Estimate
$6,000 - 8,000




Isn't this a rather good price?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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