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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
sleeving shotgun monoblock
      #230469 - 25/05/13 03:57 AM

I still doin't know if I will do this but I have found a frind at my yacht club that can make the monoblock and said that he would help me because he thinks it would be fun. So I have Ellis book and I understand how he makes his but he uses a small shim at the braech end of the barrel CAN ONE bore it out so as not to have to use this shim if I do this I will try to go with a 12 bore barrel if I can find one that will work how I want. I have also though about just making it in 10 bore but that is even harder to find then a 12 bore made with the right steel and whith the right slow twist rifiling. If I can't get those I think I would like to go with a 577 23/4 B.P.E. using 650 gr. and at 1650 to 1700 fps loads. The action I would use is my 10 bore 31/2 inch made in Spain.

Tom N


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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: TomN]
      #230481 - 25/05/13 06:49 AM

Tom,
Your writing is harder than hell for me to understand, exactly, what you are asking, but I will try to answer:

Review of questions:
You have a Spanish 10 gauge 3.5" magnum, and are wishing to do a conversion to a 12 gauge rifled double. As an alternative, you may convert it to a .577 2.75" BPE double.
You are also asking if you can eliminate the breech end shim, as used by Ellis Brown, as explained in his book on conversions.

I took class in gunsmithing school, from W. Ellis Brown, on the process of converting double shotguns to double rifles, prior to his writing book on same subject, now in its 2nd edition, a copy of which you said you have, so perhaps that will help in answering your questions. Further, I have done several conversions in various calibers.
____________________
My response to your questions:
In writing his book about the double rifle conversions, Brown, of course, has written it intending the conversions to be in double rifle calibers; not in gauge gun "calibers," as you are intending.

If I understand you correctly, that shim at breech end that you are talking about is used for the first step in the process of regulating the double rifle, keeping the barrel spacing within specs. he mentions. It is used to space the barrels at that point, to make for ease in regulation process that will follow, as he explains in book. In book, he explains the purpose of that shim, and also explains that the monoblock must be bored parallel; not tapered, for regulation that will come later. For regulation, as long as you keep the barrels apart within the specifications he mentions, your regulation to follow later, will go much better. You could put that wedge further on down the barrel, or do whatever you must, to keep barrel spacing as he specifies. Since you want to convert to rifled shotgun barrels only, your barrel spacing will be less than it is for "normal" double rifle calibers---you will have to work that out during your regulation process, following essentially the same regulation process he explains in book.

That Spanish 10 ga. 3.5" mag. you will be using is probably much the same as ones I have used for conversions to full nitro .577s; they work well for that. Ones I used were the boxlock actions, with Greener crossbolts--some do not have Greener crossbolts, so I never used any of those. In my opinion, these big Spanish actions would be a bit of an "overkill" for a 12 bore gauge gun, and also an "overkill" for a .577 BPE, being more suitable for a full .577 nitro, though they will work for your purpose, but give a much heavier end product. I have a Charles Lancaster 12 bore gauge gun with action just ever so slightly larger than normal 12 gauge double shotgun, that is of perfect size for the sort of thing you intend doing. I also have same maker's double rifle in .577 3" BPE, with action sized ever so slightly larger than normal 12 gauge double too; neither of these is anywhere nearly as large or heavy as the Spanish 10 ga. mag. actions. I have a friend who owns an original British .577 nitro double, and he allowed me to carefully measure that action, comparing its size, overall, to these Spanish 10 ga. mag. actions, and I was surprised, and delighted to find that these Spanish actions are almost identical in size to his classic British .577 nitro, making them most suitable for conversion to .577 nitro express.

It sounds as if you intend having your friend make you a new, from scratch, monoblock, rather than your cutting the 10 ga. barrels off, to form a monoblock. It is much easier to cut off the barrels, and form a monoblock from existing barrels, but if you don't want to do that, a new monoblock is the way to go.


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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 149
Loc: washington
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230487 - 25/05/13 11:08 AM

Sorry about not being clear. I am talking about the small ring that is used to fill the rim cut for the shot shell it is sodered on the end of the barrell shank at the breach end of the shank. I will be making the monoblock from the 10 gauge that I have it has the greener crossbolt. thanks for the info.

Tom N


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Rhodes
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Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230488 - 25/05/13 11:25 AM

doubleriflejack

On the subject of conversions. I notice in the other thread you mentioned that you had handled Ellis's 450NE conversion. Do you mind if I ask which action he used as a base for that gun and did he monoblock the existing shotgun barrels or did he use a shoelump arrangement?

I ask because I'm looking at options for a project and I'm not a fan of cutting shotgun barrels. Machining a new monoblock is at the top of the list at the moment but making a shoe looks interesting. Have you ever tried the shoelump barrel arrangement yourself and what are your thoughts on it?

Tom, apologies if this is digressing from your original question.

Rhodes


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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: TomN]
      #230666 - 30/05/13 06:18 AM

TomN,
Oh, I understand, you are talking about the shotgun shell rim cut in barrels, that needs to be bushed for rifle conversion. Yes, you can ignore installing the bushings, and bore the barrels out beyond the rim cuts (I have done it myself a few times), BUT BE SURE THAT WHEN DOING SO, IT LEAVES ENOUGH METAL AT THE TAPERED END OF MONOBLOCK (MUZZLE END), ESPECIALLY IF YOU WILL BE THREADING IT FOR INSTALLATION OF NEW BARRELS. THREADING ISN'T ALWAYS NECESSARY; ONE CAN JUST SOLDER FULL LENGTH INTO MONOBLOCK, WITH NO THREADS---THEY MUST BE SOLDERED PROPERLY AND WELL, THOUGH, OF COURSE.

Rhodes,
On Ellis Brown's first double rifle conversion, he used a 16 gauge common German action, but I can't recall which make. I am sure that I have that information in my notes, but it would take me forever to find it---he may have mentioned the make in his book too. However, the make isn't important, as he has used a number of different German made shotgun actions for conversions, as have I, and all of them worked beautifully for conversion. One of my latest is a 1970s vintage Merkel 12 ga. converted to .500/.416 Rigby. Brown used existing barrels to make monoblock on that one, if I recall correctly. He never started using the shoe lump method until well after he wrote his book. I think that in his next edition of the book, he intends a chapter or section in it covering the shoe lump method. One if its main advantages is that it requires no seam between barrels and monoblock. No, I have never shoe lumped anything. The monoblock system is hard to beat, for it makes for a strong sound system, now well proven through many years of use.


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doubleriflejack
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Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: Rhodes]
      #230700 - 31/05/13 04:59 AM

Rhodes,
I looked it up for you: The 16 gauge action that W. Ellis Brown used for his very first conversion, to .450 nitro, was a Simson, German, action. It is described somewhat in his book, along with a color picture of the completed rifle.


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230717 - 31/05/13 01:41 PM

^ note that IIRC the Simson shotguns were a product of the previous East Germany, that is strong but rather agricultural.

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: kamilaroi]
      #230724 - 31/05/13 05:27 PM

^ Don't know about that !

I have a Simson 12Ga ejector & have had a couple of others + Sauer & Merkel, pretty much the same, with my Simson being the same or better than the Merkel I had (looked the same to) !


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Rhodes
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Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230758 - 01/06/13 07:48 PM

Doubleriflejack

Thanks for chasing up the info on Ellis's original 450NE conversion, much appreciated. I did buy his book some time ago but I loaned it to a friend and have been meaning to collect it.

Your latest conversion sounds interesting. The 500/416 NE is a pretty hefty cartridge at 3150 bar on a relatively large diameter case. It says a lot for the strength of the German shotgun actions. Do you have some photo's of this on that you can post up? I'd like to see how it turned out.


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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: Rhodes]
      #230845 - 04/06/13 05:12 AM

Rhodes,
Sorry, but I have no cameras of any kind; don't like cameras of any kind. More importantly, I have no ideas how to post pictures online, something I have not yet done, so I can't post pictures.
The .500/.416 was designed by Kreighoff, specifically for double rifles. It gives same performance as the outstanding .416 Rigby cartridge, but on a rimmed cartridge of less breech pressure. If you like the .375 H & H, you will love the .416 Rigby!
Kamilgroi and Sarg,
The original, and best, Simson guns were pre WWII Simsons. Simson family was Jewish, so, of course, the Nazis seized the firm in 1939 (early hate toward the Jews), when the company became BSW, . Post war Simsons had no connection to original Simson family and original guns at all. These East German guns were stamped Merkel and Simson, but were all same guns of same design. I think that Brown's conversion was with one of the early pre WWII better quality guns, though the post war Simsons were strong well made guns, but the stocks were far from good; often splitting and breaking easily.


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Rhodes
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Reged: 20/09/11
Posts: 94
Loc: NQ, Australia
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #230853 - 04/06/13 07:08 PM

doubleriflejack

No problem. It's a shame about the camera as I'm sure you could do a cracker of a build thread on here for us novices to learn from but you give good advice regardless.

Thankyou.


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: sleeving shotgun monoblock [Re: Rhodes]
      #230874 - 05/06/13 11:09 AM

DRjack.

Thanks for the info. BTW I have only inspected post-war (former EG) models.


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