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Crusader68
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA
Breech loading percussion big bore
      #230017 - 13/05/13 03:38 PM

This big bore breech loading percussion rifle was just way too cool, I thought others might enjoy drooling as I have been.
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/german-elephant-gun-al1339/

Bore is listed as .955", so inbetween a 6 and 5 bore. Only place I've seen a breech like this one was on a cannon. But then again this is just a man portable cannon.
Sad I don't have $10k to buy this super unique piece of art.

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: Crusader68]
      #230119 - 16/05/13 01:49 AM

Crusader,

that's an interesting piece, thanks for showing it!
It's not an elephant rifle.
Actually I see a target rifle from Bavaria.
The maker's name I can't read, but "IN MÜNCH..", possibly in München / Munich.

ON the breech block "K. B. PRIVILEGIRT", meaning "Königlich bayrisch privilegiert",
a shooting club privileged by the royal bavarian court.

Maybe it is this club, still active: http://www.hauptschuetzen.eu/
Maybe another one.

No idea what targets where shot at. The piece might also have been intended as "Wallbüchse", for long-range sniping when defending the city walls.
This was the purpose of those old-time shooting clubs, and that's why they often were "privileged" - supported by the king or the city. But I wonder if that concept of city defense was still alive in 1844.

Regards,
Fuhrmann

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: fuhrmann]
      #230131 - 16/05/13 10:59 AM

That appears to be a wall-gun.(even though there is no pintle) There were many similar to this - only muzzleloaders and flintlock- English guns, not rifled persussion guns and certainly not breech loading. There were breech loading flinters, and even breech loading matchlocks, predating this 'current' device.

Defending city walls would be my guess for a purpose. The crudeness of this 'rifle' speaks of military intent.

The lock Mechanism puts it post 1825, probably well past 1840 even.

Belted ball or 'winged' bullet - we may never know. Note the 'breech' also has grooves for the belt or wings. I could easily visualize one of Forsyth's explosive 'shell's form this 'piece', blowing up an ammo wagon at long range with this rifle. The 'post' for a peep sight along with set triggers speaks of a long range purpose for this gun. It would be interesting to know the rate of twist in this piece.

Edited by Daryl_S (16/05/13 11:05 AM)

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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: DarylS]
      #230143 - 16/05/13 05:50 PM

Daryl,

I found a quite similar rifle here:
http://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/baywallb/bwbti.html

Wallbüchse / wall gun issued for the Bavarian military, model 1831 and 1842.
Built in the armory in Amberg.
This looks quite similar, but it's a muzzle loader.
And the barrel is said to have more usual 7 grooves.
Caliber is 22.2 or 22.3 mm, rate of twist is 1860 mm, about 2 yards.
No mention about the type of bullet used originally. But in 1860 it was changed to a bullet of the Podewils type, which will be something like a Minie bullet.
With this new bullet the rear sight was graduated up to 1400 paces (Schritt).
No mention of explosive bullets.

That breech loader is marked 1844 on the breech block. Looks quite similar, some metal parts as the forend nose cap may even be the same.
But loading system and rifling of the barrel are very different.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: fuhrmann]
      #230159 - 17/05/13 02:10 AM

Yes! Great find, fuhrmann.
Just over a 70" twist speaks strongly of an elongated bullet, of course.
22.2 to 22.3mm is .0223meters, is about .81 to .88 in calibre - close.

Colonel Jacob - (Englishman) was experimenting in those furry days of technical advancement for military purposes. This was prior to 1850 and concerned a side by side rifle of approximately .60 cal, that shot a 'winged' ball (bullet with long 'wings' that fit the 2 and then later a 4 groove barrel. His bullets were of the explosive type. His DR was sighted to 2,000 yards with a high ladder sight. It is said he blew up an ammunition wagon at extremely long range - 1,000 (or more) yards? Of course to have any hope of hitting at that range, the barrels HAD to shoot parallel - no other regulation could possibly work.

Effective - they thought so or would not have designed and used such 'artillery'. On a wall, the breech loader would be so much handier than the muzzle loader.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: DarylS]
      #230179 - 17/05/13 04:24 PM

Daryl,

I read the text on the Bavarian wall gun once more, now I found mention of the original bullet:
"Die Rundkugeln wurden gepflastert geladen" - round balls were loaded with a patch.
Sights in this original form up to 600 paces. Powder charge not mentioned.
I think they were not using that much powder back then, compared to the loads you are using now.

1860 a new Minie-type bullet was introduced, diameter 22 mm, weight 101.7 g (1569 grains),charge 7.656 g (118 grains, seems not much). New rear sight installed, graduated to 1400 paces which will be about 1050 m.

In 1877 the guns were obsolete and sold.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: fuhrmann]
      #230189 - 18/05/13 08:08 AM

Cool! - That all makes sense. I'd expect a charge or a patched ball to only be in the 175 to 200gr. considering what was normally used in dangerous game rifles of around 8 bore.

Their velocities would still be fairly low, about 1,300fps MAX with the round ball, but consider most military loads with hollow based Minnie-style bullets were quite tiny compared to what was used with round ball. In the ,.58;s a mere 60gr. and in the .69's, another 10gr. at 70gr. Thus, for the 8 bore, the 118gr. charge with 1,569gr. bullets sounds quite appropriate.

The slug might make 1,000 fps, but probably not.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: DarylS]
      #230194 - 19/05/13 01:49 AM

The rifle indeed resembles a Bavarian Wallbüchse M1831. In DWJ 1984, 9-12, Martin Behrens wrote a 4-piece article about this special-purpose rifle. The wallrifle was intended to provide the then Bavarian fortresses with a long range (for the day) sniping capability to keep the then current smooth-bore artillery away. The then, 1831, current infantry armament was still a smooth-bore percussion musket with a short effective range. These rifles were originally muzzleloaders with a bore 22.3mm = .878", groove 22.9 mm = .902" diameter, firing patched round balls. Later a Minie-type bullet weighing 100 gramm = 1543 gr was used. Total M1831 production was 825 such rifles. In the mid-1840 the Munich mechanic August Knocke proposed this breechloader to replace the M1831. As you see in the photos, his rifle had a chamber-loading breech action similar to the French wall-rifle M1831. It used a belted round ball like the British Brunswick rifle of 1840. Apparently this Knocke-designed breechloader was never adopted in real numbers, as the rifled muskets then coming into general use had the same ranging capabilities as such wall rifles.
BTW, "Privileg, privilegiert" was used in 18th-19th century Bavaria and Austria instead of "Patent, patentiert". So the breech inscription means "Royal Bavarian patented 1844".

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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Breech loading percussion big bore [Re: kuduae]
      #230494 - 25/05/13 05:41 PM

kuduae,
thanks for the information!

Daryl,
your considerations again point out that those Germanic round balls were slooow.
"Wenig Kraut und viel Lot schiesst weit und schiesst tot"
Old-time German hunting wisdom, way before "Magnum" was invented....
But hunting skills and a well-trained Schweisshund (tracking dog) were highly regarded.
Little powder and much lead shoots far and shoots dead.

fuhrmann

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