Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site
      #227557 - 26/03/13 04:12 PM

Hello folks,

It was suggested I post this here to find some info. It was originally posted on Double Guns.

I just acquired a vintage Mauser that has me a little stumped. It has all the features of a Commercial Army Model C Oberndorf sporter except that it has a DWM marked receiver, not Oberndorf. Left wall is marked "Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabrik Berlin".

It has an original vintage Lyman #35 receiver site which appears to be original to the time of building. It has added markings for 175g and 139g bullet zeros. In many ways is a Dead-Ringer for a Model C Army. It carries Commercial the "2,57 G.B.P. St.m.g" proof marks that were in use from 1891 - 1913, along with "Crown/Crown N" proofs on Barrel, Receiver, and on the turned down Bolt. It has a red recoil pad with the maker's name removed from the center. LOP is 13-3/4" to the front trigger.

"Made in Germany" after the serial number is one-line stamped on the bottom of the stock. 3 digit serial number with last 2 digits matching on all the parts including the Double-Set Trigger assembly. A "7" is on the top of the barrel ring ahead of the receiver indicating it is 7x57 cal. The only other mark found is stamping of "4 small circles in a diamond patern" on most of the parts. I think this may be an inspectors mark, but not sure.

Every indication is that this is a Professional Factory built rifle as opposed to a Gunsmith project. The 22" stepped barrel also looks factory original and not a cut-down. The rifle weighs exactly 7 pounds.

I've listed a bunch of pictures and would ask for opinions and comments please.

Thanks to all.












Edited by CptCurl (11/06/13 11:53 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Even
.300 member


Reged: 28/12/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Canada
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227561 - 26/03/13 09:45 PM

If you track down the thread below, it may give you some good information:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post214828


Though I'm sure some very knowledgeable people will see this soon, and provide your answers

Edited by Even (26/03/13 09:47 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: Even]
      #227589 - 27/03/13 06:22 AM

looks very well made
iirc Kuduae wrote once here that DWM was only making some sporter's as presents or better said as a bribe. when he will see it I am sure he would have an opinion about this. please
make a better version of your last pic showing the proof marks.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: lancaster]
      #227596 - 27/03/13 07:37 AM

here are a couple of close-ups of things I mentioned. A close-up of the commercial proofs and a close-up of the 139 & 175 bullet markings on the rear site.




--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227597 - 27/03/13 07:43 AM



Very nice indeed.

Good pick up.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deepwoods
.275 member


Reged: 21/12/12
Posts: 75
Loc: nh
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: 500Nitro]
      #227611 - 27/03/13 11:21 AM

Very interesting rifle, Are there any serial numbers stamped inside the barrel channel in the stock? How about the back of the magazine box? No serial numbers stamped on the action? It appears the the 388 serial number is stamped on the left side of the barrel below the wood line?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: deepwoods]
      #227620 - 27/03/13 01:02 PM

Hello deepwoods,

The full serial number is stamped on the right side of the action, on the right side of the barrel, on the bolt handle, and on the bottom of the stock, in front of the words "Made in Germany". The last 2 digits of the serial number are stamped on "all" the various parts of the rifle including all the bolt parts, the magazine / trigger assembly, the floor plate, etc. Even the extractor has the last 2 digits of the serial number.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227624 - 27/03/13 02:29 PM

I would say this is a DWM factory build sporter

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: lancaster]
      #227635 - 27/03/13 09:50 PM

At first, I can only repeat what I wrote about a simlar rifle in the thread quoted above by Even:
"Though this rifle may look like a sporterized surplus military rifle, it is not. At the time it was proofed there were no "surplus" M98 rifles, as these were still state of the art military rifles.
The CROWN-crown/N proofmark shows it was civilian proofed according to the rule of July 23, 1893, using the special "4000 atm proof powder". This proof was in use mainly before 1912, though Zella-Mehlis apparently sometimes used up left-over powder up to 1922. IMHO this rifle was proofed before WW1.
In those innocent days around 1900 it was usual practice to include some sporting rifles in the military calibers into each shipment of military rifles to foreign countries. These were meant as "presents" to the decision-making officers. Mauser, Oberndorf sent C-type "Army Hunting Rifles", for example some in 7.65 mm for Argentinia, see Jon Speed's first book "Mauser-OOSR" page 111.
Ludwig Loewe/DWM also had sporters, the so-called "Plezier rifles" built on left over M93 Spanish Mauser actions and shipped them, together with the military M95 7x57 Mausers, to the South African republics Orange Free State and Transvaal, where the sporters were not only used for hunting, but for shooting Brits too. These plezier Mausers are now rare and sought-after collector items. All these rifles show civilian proofmarks.
IMHO this DWM made, civilian proofed sporter served as a present (or bribe) when it was shipped to a South American country. At least, it looks somewhat similar to a Mauser C-type with the military stepped barrel and front sight base. Though DWM did not offer sporters to the public, they made several hundreds at least, but not for sale."
Interesting to me on this rifle is the set trigger arrangement. The spring of the double set trigger is the long Mauser factory type, not the short V-type of the contemporary Suhl-made rifles. But the set trigger asembly is mounted into the triggerguard with a seperate housing, other than the Mauser commercial ones. The two small crosspins holding the housing are visible in one of the photos. The Magazine-triggerguard unit with hinged, button release floorplate apparently comes from either Argentine 1909 or Portuguese Vegueiro production, both are the same.
The load information "2.57 gramm Gewehrblättchenpulver = rifle flake powder / Stahlmantelgeschoss = steel jacketed bullet" is of the type used up to 1912, so this rifle was civilian proofed before.
IMHO the stock looks more like a pre-1912 Mauser B one instead of the usual "sporterized military" C type one. The red rubber recoil pad certainly is a later add-on, as is the Lyman #35 peep sight.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: kuduae]
      #227638 - 27/03/13 11:07 PM

Thank you kuduae,

Quote:

IMHO this DWM made, civilian proofed sporter served as a present (or bribe) when it was shipped to a South American country. At least, it looks somewhat similar to a Mauser C-type with the military stepped barrel and front sight base. Though DWM did not offer sporters to the public, they made several hundreds at least, but not for sale."


If this rifle was included with, (or in advance of) a Military rifle order/purchase, would you have a guess as to what country and what year?
.


Quote:

Interesting to me on this rifle is the set trigger arrangement. The spring of the double set trigger is the long Mauser factory type, not the short V-type of the contemporary Suhl-made rifles. But the set trigger Assembly is mounted into the triggerguard with a separate housing, other than the Mauser commercial ones. The two small crosspins holding the housing are visible in one of the photos.


Do you think that DWM built this double-set trigger arrangement, or did it come from another source such as Oberndorf? Do you think the "small-circle" inspection marks (see pic) found on the triggerguard/floorplate, bolt handle, follower, etc., etc., would indicate that at least the assembly was all at the same time and location?

.


Quote:

The Magazine-triggerguard unit with hinged, button release floorplate apparently comes from either Argentine 1909 or Portuguese Vegueiro production, both are the same.


Were either of these rifle contracts offered in 7mm cal. to give us a clue about this rifles origin?
.


Quote:

The load information "2.57 gramm Gewehrblättchenpulver = rifle flake powder / Stahlmantelgeschoss = steel jacketed bullet" is of the type used up to 1912, so this rifle was civilian proofed before.


So this would be definite proof that it made before 1912. (no pun intended)
.


Quote:

IMHO the stock looks more like a pre-1912 Mauser B one instead of the usual "sporterized military" C type one. The red rubber recoil pad certainly is a later add-on, as is the Lyman #35 peep sight.


I have shown here a picture of this DWM stock compared to my very early Army model C that I have. The grip area is identical, but forward of the triggerguard is different.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227667 - 28/03/13 07:58 AM

If this rifle was included with, (or in advance of) a Military rifle order/purchase, would you have a guess as to what country and what year?
The only clues we have for the rifle's original destination are: A country supplied by DWM before 1912 with M98 action military rifles in 7x57. Unfortunately there are several possibilities:
Mexico, several models, both rifles, carbines and short rifles from 1902 on.
Brazil, models 1907 and 1908, both rifles and carbines.
Colombia, model 1904.
El Salvador, model 1904
Uruguay, 1908
Make your choice. My nod goes to Mexico, as the rifle apparently was in the USA before WW2, when the Lyman sight was installed.
Do you think that DWM built this double-set trigger arrangement, or did it come from another source such as Oberndorf? Do you think the "small-circle" inspection marks (see pic) found on the triggerguard/floorplate, bolt handle, follower, etc., etc., would indicate that at least the assembly was all at the same time and location?
Maybe the smaller set trigger parts were bought in by DWM from their subsidiary Mauser, but Mauser did not make separate set trigger housings. Mauser set triggers were always mounted directly into the accordingly machined triggerguards. I don't know about the meaning of the circle stamps right now, but the like serial numbers on all parts are proof enough that the rifle was assembled from rough parts at one time and in one place.
Were either of these rifle contracts offered in 7mm cal. to give us a clue about this rifles origin?
Though a small number of Vegueiros in 7x57 were sold to a Brazilian police force, this is no clue to the rifle's original destination. The Vegueiro is not a Mauser action, but was developed from the M88 and Mannlicher turnbolt designs. Only the bottom metal is interchangeable with true Mausers. For these "promotion" rifles DWM often used left over parts from military production runs, as did Mauser for their C-type rifles. FI all the 3 "Plezier" Mausers I have seen, that were shipped to the South African Boer Republics together with military M95 (round bolt face) rifles were built on M93 (square bolt face) actions left over from Spanish orders.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
deepwoods
.275 member


Reged: 21/12/12
Posts: 75
Loc: nh
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: kuduae]
      #227680 - 28/03/13 11:07 AM

Good information and informative post from Mr. Kuduae on this interesting rifle and it's apparent possible journey's and provenance.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: kuduae]
      #227686 - 28/03/13 02:43 PM

Hello Kuduae,

I really appreciate your knowledge of these rifles. You are a good teacher. I was hoping to use the Army model C for deer hunting here in Wisconsin this fall, but now I may have to use the DWM in its place. Very tough choices.

As a side question. Have you seen any Army Model C rifles with the front sling swivel mounted on a barrel band in position where it goes through the stock such as mine? (see my pictures below) All the pictures I have seen in the Speed book and the Olson book show the front swivel on a barrel band forward of the stock.

I did find a picture in "Arms of the World, 1911" that shows a rifle with the sling swivel through the stock into a barrel band like mine. The picture ad is also shown below.

I have also included other pictures of this Army model C rifle so that I might learn more about it. It is in 8x57 cal with a 25" barrel. The left side of the receiver is marked "Gew.98" - top of the receiver is marked "WAFFENFABRIK MAUSER A.-G. OBERNDORF A/N 1906" Please give me your opinion about this rifle. All numbers are matching on every part of this rifle.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227711 - 29/03/13 07:19 AM

The same pictures as in the 1911 ALFA were also shown in the 1908 AKAH = wholesaler Albrecht Kind, Hunstig and 1910 August Stukenbrok, Einbeck mail order catalogs. Not unusual, as making new printing plates was quite expensive. Each plate started out with a hand engraving. So the same plates were used over and over again, even by competitors. For dating a gun these old catalog pics are rather unusable. FI Rigby used pics of actions like the slant-box "short intermediate" and stepped ring "magnum" Mauser actions in their 1930s catalogs, despite both actions being discontinued about 1905.





Note that both catalogs name these rifles simply as "Armeemodell". As the monikers "type A,B,C,E,S and M" were used by Mauser only from 1922 on, it is not quite correct to apply these designations to pre-WW1 Mausers IMHO. Up to WW1 Mauser did a lot of experimenting with stock and other configurations with many "nonstandard" rifles coming up.
Your rifle is clearly dated 1906 so it is quite early for such a basic model. The serial number is of no help here as it is apparently a military production number. A 1906 commercial Mauser serial number should be in the 11800 to 15000 range.
The rifle bears the then normal Mauser civilian proofmarks crown/B and crown/U only. As there is no "N" stamp, many people, especially British auction houses, think these rifles were proofed for blackpowder only. This aint so! Up to the 1920s M98 Mauser rifles were made for smokeless cartridges only. So the government proofhouse in Oberndorf deemed it unnecessary to mark the obvious fact that these rifles were meant for shooting bullets, crown/G stamp, or not for nitro loads. "156.14" is a gauge number, like 10, 12,16, 20 still in use for shotguns. It indicates a bore or land (not groove) diameter between 7.87 and 8.12 mm at the time of proof. Though these old gauge numbers went out of general use in 1912, Mauser continued to stamp them for quite some time. FI all the Mauser .22lr rifles up to 1945 bear the gauge number "459".
The "Gew98" marking shows this rifle was made up on a standard German military long, 29" barrel, military rifle parts. The muzzle of the shortened barrel was turned down at the factory to accept the Gew98 front sight base sleeve. The bolt handle is turned down and the knob flattened and checkered on the underside just like on the later, 1909, military Kar98AZ military carbines. these "Armeemodell" and later type C rifles were often assembled from parts rejected by the scrupulous military acceptance authorities because of minor dimensional differences that did not affect function or safety.
If you look into the old catalog descriptions, these basic rifles were only offered with military type double stage triggers. The double set trigger on your Armeemodell rifle is of the usual V-spring pre-WW1 Suhl design mentioned above. IMHO it is an aftermarket add on, installed when the rifle was new. Any country gunsmith was capable to install such an unit, bought in from one of the Suhl set-trigger makers (a specialized trade in the Gunmaking centers).

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: kuduae]
      #227717 - 29/03/13 09:53 AM

Hello Kuduae,

Thank you once again for the very helpful information. I always try to get as much info about my rifles as possible. That's why I like this forum, and all the people, like yourself, that are so helpful. Please give your opinion of the year that this rifle would have been made. Can you assume it was 1906 because of the receiver date?

Quote:

If you look into the old catalog descriptions, these basic rifles were only offered with military type double stage triggers. The double set trigger on your Armeemodell rifle is of the usual V-spring pre-WW1 Suhl design mentioned above. IMHO it is an aftermarket add on, installed when the rifle was new. Any country gunsmith was capable to install such an unit, bought in from one of the Suhl set-trigger makers (a specialized trade in the Gunmaking centers).



OK, I thought this bottom line in the "Arms of the World, 1911" advertisement meant that a "Hair Trigger" was a double-set trigger and this was a factory option.

In order to study this rifle more, I noticed that the sear-lever had a "43" stamped on it, so I took apart the double-set trigger from the triggerguard / floorplate assembly by driving out the 2 pins. I found that the triggers were also numbered "43" like the sear-lever and also the floorplate. That is why I thought this double-set trigger was put in at the factory as an option. The stamps did seem to me to be the same as on the floorplate. If this trigger was installed by a country gunsmiths, do you think he would stamp all the parts to match the serial number?






--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227743 - 29/03/13 10:59 PM

Quote: Can you assume it was 1906 because of the receiver date?
Of course "1906" dates the rifle! you have to understand the German military numbering system: 1) model of the gun, here "Gew98". 2) factory, here "Waffenfabrik Mauser, Oberndorf". 3) the year of manufacture, "1906". 4) a serial number for that year, 1906 in this case. Each factory started each new year with "1" and continued to "9999", only four digits. After 9999 the numbers restarted with "1a" and so on until a new year started with "1" again.
The sear proper is of course numbered with the rifle as it was not replaced when the set trigger was installed. Only the military trigger itself was replaced by the small kickoff lever. The set trigger assembly may indeed have been installed by the Mauser factory commercial shop on your rifle on special order. Nearly everything was possible then at the Mauser factory. At least neither the AKAH and Stukenbrok catalogs don't mention a set trigger option on these rifles. As I wrote, everyone was capable of installing such an aftermarket set trigger. But this set trigger assembly is not of the Mauser design. Compare the spring arrangement to that on your DWM sporter. The double set trigger on your Mauser Armeemodell is definitely of the Suhl design. Maybe Mauser bought it in from the guntrade there because it was cheaper and easier to install into the military type bottom metal instead of replacing all bottom metal with a Mauser commercial one that was specially machined to take the set trigger parts. On those basic "Armeemodell", later "C type" sporters a main objective was to hold costs down by using parts from the volume military production.
Please reread Jon Speed's "Mauser-Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles". All the "Army Model C rifles" he shows and lists are dated 1908 and later, so this may explain the earlier far back sling swivel mounting on your rifle, somewhat impractical for carriing by German stndards.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: kuduae]
      #227747 - 30/03/13 03:52 AM

Thank you Kuduae,

Looks like you have answered all my questions. I don't have very many commercial mausers, but I do have several Wehrmannsgewehr rifles. Do you know anything about these types of rifles?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: buckstix]
      #227750 - 30/03/13 05:48 AM

IMHO I will be of little use when discussing Wehrmannsgewehre, as these are of little interest to me.
BTW about that fetish of collectors, matching serial numbers: It is a common misconception that a German military arm, be it a Gewehr 98 or a Luger Pistole 08, with matching serial numbers is still in the state it left the factory. This ain't so. Up to late in WW1 German military armorers got spare parts for repairs without any numbers, but they had proper number stamps. On replacing a broken or missing part they numbered the replacement to match the gun's serial number. So an Erfurt made P08 may even contain DWM made replacement parts despite matching serial numbers.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9033
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Vintage DWM Commercial 7x57 Mauser w Lyman 35 site [Re: kuduae]
      #227781 - 01/04/13 12:51 AM

it very nice to see this DWM sporters and I think they are very attrative made.
when you see that DWM was in this time one of biggest rifle makers in the world making military rifle's like Ford making car's its astonish how well this sporter's are build.
they are real "Plezier rifles" or better said pleasure rifle's

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 63 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  NitroX 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 24782

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved