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By the way, lancaster, I agree the Russian direction seems effective and simple. As for the ranging loss, I doubt that is a serious flaw. Compromises must be made, and certain the rounds will shoot with adequate velocity and energy out to 50 meters or more, ranges beyond which any pistol round is of dubious value.

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By the way, lancaster, I agree the Russian direction seems effective and simple. As for the ranging loss, I doubt that is a serious flaw. Compromises must be made, and certain the rounds will shoot with adequate velocity and energy out to 50 meters or more, ranges beyond which any pistol round is of dubious value.

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I understand where you are coming from 9.3x57 when making the limited effective range statement, but students of old Elmer might disagree as to effective range of either pistol or revolver. Of course, they are not "Average" in any way.

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True, but the terminal effectiveness of ALL service pistols degrades so fast past 50 meters that the ability to hit with them is much offset by what the bullet is capable of when it gets there, especially when referring to penetration of body armor, helmets, and etc.

Even the best in armor punchers currently issued have very low sectional densities and do not hold that performance very far out.

Now, of course, if all you are armored with is a chest of feathers, well, beware!

I brought my son to meet the late Bob Hagel who told us of a time he and Elmer were scouting some elk country when the kicked up a ruffed grouse that flew across a meadow and landed just inside the treeline, a later measured 125 long paces away. Elmer saw it, and drew his 4" .44 and...from the saddle...fired one shot, killing the grouse.

I think all of us pistolero wannabees have made some pretty good shots on small stuff, grouse, ground squirrels, woodchucks, etc, but Hagel told me Elmer was pretty darn good. Tho...when I asked him about the famous 750 yard mulie kill with the .44, he smiled, and said just maybe Elmer was exaggerating.....a lot...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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A steel-core, steel jacketed 200 grain bullet running 1000 fps or a little better would have sealed the deal. But it never got to see the light of day, and I've never seen where they ever tried such a thing.

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A steel-core, steel jacketed 200 grain bullet running 1000 fps or a little better would have sealed the deal. But it never got to see the light of day, and I've never seen where they ever tried such a thing.

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Actually they did. The government made ammo for the Thompson that although marked 45, had slightly smaller dimensions than ACP (probably to reduce pressure issues if it was fired in a standard 1911), but ballistics more in line with the Roland (sp) 1200+fps.
Think that I remember the reference in one of the COW books.

Tom

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I think you might be referring to the ".45 Remington-Thompson". It was a short-lived experimental affair that went nowhere and never was loaded in any significant quantity. Also, it did not use a 200 grain steel-core bullet, but rather the other direction, a 250 grain pointed bullet. It was a sort-of attempt at a ".45 Magnum"-type round, the case being 1/10" longer than the .45 ACP. Interesting, but not the improvement to the .45 ACP that Uncle could have made if penetration of body armor and helmets was the goal of the pistol.

There's nothing in any COW edition I have referring to any round as you cite, but the R-T load is cited in various materials pertaining to the history of the Thompson.

As an aside, tho, if you have an older Lyman 454190 mold, you can get an interesting and very deep penetrating {in soft targets, not in hard/steel} load going. That semi-pointed bullet {it is the old 1800's Army bullet configuration} will get you over 800 fps in a 1911 and at 262 grains cast of wheelweights penetrates critters very deep indeed. I believe Lyman, due to demand by the CAS has reconfigured that mold to a wider meplat {for safe feeding in lever guns} and thus destroyed the historicity of it, and also likely reduced the penetration capability somewhat.

Anyway, the first .45 Auto load WAS indeed a 200 grain bullet made for the original 1905 auto pistol, but not at higher velocities, and not loaded with a steel core.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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My reference to the 200 was sinly because the first bullet made for the .45 Auto was of 200 grain wieght, the technology and experience of making simple steel core bullets existed at the time {WW2} and the Army had a desire to improve the penetration of the .45 ACP. Later developments certainly improved performance of rounds against hard targets, but Uncle Sam had an easy fix to some degree at his fingertips even back during the Big War, but never tried it.

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My reference to the 200 was sinly because the first bullet made for the .45 Auto was of 200 grain wieght, the technology and experience of making simple steel core bullets existed at the time {WW2} and the Army had a desire to improve the penetration of the .45 ACP. Later developments certainly improved performance of rounds against hard targets, but Uncle Sam had an easy fix to some degree at his fingertips even back during the Big War, but never tried it.

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I believe they let everything aside just for bringing production of whatever to the maximum.

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Yes, of course. That is obvious. And more so for the 40 years of standard issue AFTER WW2 due to the vast quantities of .45 ammo existing at the close of the war.

However, the .45 was used as the platform for ballistic testing of helmets and body armor from initial introduction of the M1917 helmet {the "British" design} thru the M1917A1 thru the M1 and development of body armor in WW2. Interestingly, the Army never addressed the failures of the .45 thru a program of improvement {as was done with the .30 Government cartridge} at any time in the cartridge's "lifespan"...and still hasn't. In fact, we are now issuing those Marines tabled to carry the 1911 ammunition deemed ballistically substandard in the early 1950's!

Curious, indeed.

It doesn't take a whole lot to stop a .45 FMJ. The "high technology" alternatives you presented above are not necessary to improve the .45's penetration capabilities since it starts so poor in this regard from the gitgo. If you add those options, however, you give nothing up in diameter and gain much in penetration. Personally, having used FMJ's in the .45 on many, many stock animals, I do not see the advantage of it in any significant way, none, when using FMJ's.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Yes, of course. That is obvious. And more so for the 40 years of standard issue AFTER WW2 due to the vast quantities of .45 ammo existing at the close of the war.

However, the .45 was used as the platform for ballistic testing of helmets and body armor from initial introduction of the M1917 helmet {the "British" design} thru the M1917A1 thru the M1 and development of body armor in WW2. Interestingly, the Army never addressed the failures of the .45 thru a program of improvement {as was done with the .30 Government cartridge} at any time in the cartridge's "lifespan"...and still hasn't. In fact, we are now issuing those Marines tabled to carry the 1911 ammunition deemed ballistically substandard in the early 1950's!

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