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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware!
      #226110 - 28/02/13 04:46 PM

From a thread on another forum......let's assume a client throws down a deposit on a relatively low budget RSA plains game hunt and shortly thereafter (with presumably little cost incurred by the PH) is diagnosed with cancer. I suppose that contractually the outfitter is allowed to keep that deposit but is that moral or ethical? Is it good business long term to keep it? Just an FYI to other hunters, the outfitter in the thread title decided that $2000 was more important than his reputation and sat back while other AR forum members gathered funds to make the client whole again. Just thinking out loud....but what would the outfitters on this site have done with the deposit?

Edited by JohnTheGreek (28/02/13 05:14 PM)

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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #226113 - 28/02/13 06:52 PM

I did not read the post on AR, so I do not know the background.

There are a few things involved that must be taken into account, as said I do not have all the facts and I will treat it as a hypothetical case.

If you rent a concession, like I do, it depends on the agreement you have with the land owner. Some land owners insist that you pay a deposit with them the moment you book the facility and it is usually a non refundable deposit. I do not enter in deals like that, because it puts me in a situation, where either myself or the client can loose money. I pay the land owner on arival for the renting of the camp.

What will I do:
If I was the land owner, I would pay back the deposit and will only deduct the cost of the transfer of the money.

The way I am working ie. paying the land owner on arival, I will refund the client less the cost of the money transfer.

If I had to pay a deposit with the land owner I will negotiate with him to try and get the money back for the client.

There are a couple of things that we must also keep in mind, I do not suggest that it happened in this case.

Most hunting trips are booked a year or more in advance, if a client cancel it is very difficult to find another client to fill that spot. When hunting is your only means of income, it will mean that you will not receive an income for that period.

The above is very true in the case of dangerous game hunts, where you must pay in advance for the camp and to secure your license if there is a quota on the game to be hunted. If I arrange a hunt for a client in Mozambique, I must pay upfront, because there is a huge waiting list to get a spot.

This is just some of the basics involved. I really feel for the client and I do not know the exact situation of the outfitter, he can also loose money. Maybe they should meet each other halfway.

This again proves the importace of trip cancelation insurance.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: SAHUNT]
      #226114 - 28/02/13 07:22 PM

This matter had reached pandemic proportions on the web. Someone is going to a lot of effort to raise this everywhere. So much so, I'm more than happy to dismiss anything the poster says. Someone has a problem .....

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: SAHUNT]
      #226115 - 28/02/13 08:41 PM

The outfitter owes the funds back to the client as he is unable to deliver the service ie the hunt.

I always insist an outfitter which has bullshit clauses about not having to refund a deposit for any reason, delete those clauses, as the inability to deliver a safari is HIS obligation not the clients.

The deposit is there for the outfitter to cover his costs if the CLIENT DEFAULTS, not when the OUTFITTER DEFAULTS.

If an outfitter has to pay a deposit to a landowner for access and the landowner screws the outfitter is the business of the outfitter, and the outfitter should refund the deposit 100% if the outfitter is not able to deliver the hunt, or an agreed upon alternative.

"Insurance" for the outfitter being unable to provide a hunt, is the responsibility of the outfitter, not the client.

As it comes from AR, I imagine the crooked outfitter is one of the many that infest that place. Probably had "good" members giving "independent" references for the outfitter as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: NitroX]
      #226128 - 28/02/13 10:11 PM

For every bad outfitter there is a bad client and for every bad client there is a dozen clients who whinge, whiners and want a free ride or hand out.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: tophet1]
      #226131 - 28/02/13 10:56 PM

Quote:

For every bad outfitter there is a bad client and for every bad client there is a dozen clients who whinge, whiners and want a free ride or hand out.



tophet

That is true enough. See that sort of thing a lot on the net, and especially "that" forum. Someone pays a deposit for a hunt, then wants it back, and then it starts on the net, trying to blackmail the outfitter into paying it back.

My comments are relating to a hypothetical where the outfitter cancels a hunt, or fails to deliver a hunt - for whatever reason - yes absolutely the deposit should be refunded 100%.

If it is one of these client claims for compensation, because the hunt starts a day late, their rifle is refused on entry by customs, the guaranteed trophy leopard is not shot so the TV show is a failure etc etc, then it is a whole different story.

Sometimes only having copies of original documents substantiate the claims of either party one way or another.

Re collecting funds to compensate a client from other net users, hell bells these guys have more money than me, anyone want to start a net charity fund to refund me for a hunt I stupidly paid for at an auction a couple years ago and was mistaken about what I was buying ... never have had the lack of ethics to actually do it ... maybe I should demand a refund too ??? !!!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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SAHUNT
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Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: tophet1]
      #226133 - 28/02/13 10:57 PM

I did what I normaly do not do and I read the post on AR.

I think in this case the client did default, but with good reason. A deposit is there to cover the expenses that you must incur before the client arrives.

This hunt was booked on short notice and I do not have more details, the client was due for a bussiness trip in RSA.
I have done a few of this short notice hunts and in all cases the client only paid his day fees on arrival, believe me their are risks involved. A hunter once booked with me a week before the hunt and we agreed on everything, I have met him at the airport, accompanied him to the guest house and made final arangements. I have spoken to him the next morning and checked up on everything. I was on my way to pick him up, I was almost at the guest house, when he called me and told me he had to cancel because he could not complete his bussiness due to the poor service in RSA. I had arrangements that I cancelled to accomodate him on the hunt. What was the end of the story, he got another deal with another outfitter. This guy was bullshitting me, I insisted that he pay me at least 50% of the dayfees and I appreciate that he did that. There are bullshitters everywhere.

Legally the outfitter have a foot to stand on and I am sure he did put work in to arrage the hunt on short notice, but here it was cicumstances that prevented the client from doing the hunt.

I still would have refunded the client, but I would also ask him if he cannot try and resell the hunt to put us both in a win win situation.

Any person who is of the opinion that we as outfitters/ ph's makes a lot of money, got it very much wrong. The economic climate across the world had a huge impact on the amount of hunting trips to Africa. The cost of keeping your equipment in tip top shape for the clients cost a lot of money. Most of us do what we do because we love it, not for the money. If I had to live only on the profits I make out of hunting I would have been bankrupt a long time ago.

I wish we could go back to the days where gentleman could seal a deal on their word, and they treated each other with dignity and respect. It is sad that contracts became the norm and the humanity part got lost.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: SAHUNT]
      #226152 - 28/02/13 11:58 PM

This was a hunt that was booked on short notice with the CLIENT being unable to come to RSA due to illness. I think SAHUNT brings up a good point in that, under many circumstances, the deposit money would have already gone to various government fees, payments to subcontractors, food costs, etc. before the client even thought about backing out of the deal. This is particularly the case with DG hunts of course. The thing that got me about this case was that it was a relatively low end plains game hunt where there were very likely NO pre-paid trophy fees or costs in what I recall was a very short time between booking and theoretical arrival. As one guy pointed out on the original thread, it was quite likely that the only cost pre-hunt would probably be the PH filling the cruiser with petrol and buying food at the local grocer the day the client arrived. Given that, keeping a deposit because "A contract is a contract" seems slimy as all hell to me. What if the roles were reversed? Maybe I am a soft touch, but even if I had $5000 down on a Buff hunt, if the PH were killed or incapacitated unexpectedly two weeks before the hunt, I would feel like a real scumbag calling the widow and saying, "Hey, you owe me $5000 or a buff hunt". Sure, I MIGHT do a lighter version of that after several months, but not within short order of finding out about the death or illness. Frankly, I think the definition of morality is "Doing the right thing ESPECIALLY when it hurts".

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SAHUNT
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Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #226154 - 01/03/13 12:06 AM

Quote:

Frankly, I think the definition of morality is "Doing the right thing ESPECIALLY when it hurts".



This is the bottom line. Well said.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: SAHUNT]
      #226211 - 01/03/13 08:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Frankly, I think the definition of morality is "Doing the right thing ESPECIALLY when it hurts".



This is the bottom line. Well said.



Amen !

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: Bushwack Safaris .. Patrick Reynecke -Beware! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #226267 - 02/03/13 03:26 PM

I gave my thoughts on the matter over on the 'other forum', from a contract point of view as that is what I deal with day in day out in my job so I won't repeat that here.

One point that was and is still being made by posters is that a deposit is to cover expenses incurred before the client arrives and that if there has been no expenses incurred then surely the outfitter could or should refund the deposit?

Although I don't know if this is the case in the safari business, but often in business deposits are requested on all sorts of deals or sales of product to ensure that the client is genuine and to guard against frivilous and timewasting actions by potential customers. It also allows for proper financial planning and management of cash flow in a business. How many of us on the strength of a pay rise or expected change in finances have puchased something in advance or proceeded with plans to do something. It is a pretty standard private and business practice all the while relying on people honouring promises and contracts.

I know there were quite distressing circumstances to the situation which started the subject in this thread so my comments are not aimed at that but are a general observation of business, contracts and deposits.

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