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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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Even
.300 member


Reged: 28/12/12
Posts: 175
Loc: Canada
Webley and Scott
      #223473 - 12/01/13 03:59 PM

I need to pick your collective brains, Gentlemen...

I know of (but cannot yet provide pictures, unfortunately!), of an old Webley and Scott single shot rifle. Quite low serial number too, 7XXX, though I can't see very many being produced. Metalwork is high quality, bore is still excellent, wood not so great.

There seems to be a real lack of information out there. No idea on caliber either, but guessing .44- ish.

Anyone have any examples or information on these rifles?

Thank you for any help.

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sbs470
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Even]
      #223481 - 12/01/13 09:11 PM

Even
we need a bit of help here.
What sort of action is it?
A photo would be a great help
Has the rifle have a horn butt plate and forend cap.
We do need some details.
the only list of serial numbers I can find is from British gunmakers vol 2 Nigel Brown
7000 bracket of numbers was made in 1879

good shooting

sbs470

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: sbs470]
      #223488 - 13/01/13 03:58 AM

If it is actually stamped "Webley & Scott" it would have to be after 1897.
Webley made all sorts of single shot rifles - break action, falling blocks (Field patent, Farquharsons, 1897 patent, '02 patent) as well as pivot block Wyleys (which should pre-date your gun) and all types of Martinis.

I look forward to your further report and pictures!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: sbs470]
      #223489 - 13/01/13 04:00 AM

Does it look anything like the picture below? The rifle is my 375 x 2½ 1902 model Webley.



That bulk around my waist is simply ballast to help take up the recoil you understand.

Edited by CptCurl (24/01/13 12:04 AM)

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Oldbrit
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Oldbrit]
      #223492 - 13/01/13 04:10 AM

Richard Milner has all the W&S records. He was able to provide the sales daybook record for my rifle (it was sold in 1912).

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/index.html

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DarylS
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Oldbrit]
      #223493 - 13/01/13 04:14 AM

THAT is a nice rifle. I could finish off my hunting days with a SS rifle like that and in that chambering as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Oldbrit
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: DarylS]
      #223495 - 13/01/13 04:25 AM

Just wish I had the original scope to go with it. Maybe one day....

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Oldbrit]
      #223501 - 13/01/13 05:16 AM

I do like the medium sized 1902 Webleys too.
I have two small frame rifles and a large frame one in the works which really is quite a big action.
Proportionally, the medium frame looks just right to me. Very nice gun.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Even
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Loc: Canada
Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Huvius]
      #223510 - 13/01/13 09:02 AM

That is a beautiful rifle, Oldbrit, I bet it handles like a dream. Thank you for posting that.

Unfortunately, Gentlemen, I don't have any pictures yet, and I am even unsure as to the action type

The only part I have seen is the barrel, which is completely octagonal, and quite thick walled and heavy. It has two shaped lugs underneath, and no ejector cutout or anything like that. It has a welded on circular loop for a sling mount underneath, the full top surface is finely serrated, the complete length, and it has "Webley and Scott" engraved on it. Serial number too. The metal work is very fine, not crude at all, and quite workmanlike and graceful. Its very uniformly grey right now, so I imagine at one time, it was quite finely rust blued.

The shaped lugs underneath look like one is for pivoting, the other for locking, but again, without seeing the action side, unsure.

That's all I really know. The other part is in storage, and the fellow is digging it out, when he can, but it may take a while

Thank you for your expertise, though...you guys are great! That link above will be very helpful, Mr. Oldbrit. I knew easy identification was a long shot, with no pictures, and I appreciate the help...I just am very curious about it.

As more information comes available, I will make it known.

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Even
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Even]
      #223513 - 13/01/13 09:25 AM

Talked to the gentleman again, and he says its a break action, not a falling block, and you must manually cock it...I gather he hasn't looked at it in forty years. He is attempting to find the receiver/stock in his boxes...

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TH44
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Even]
      #223522 - 13/01/13 10:26 AM

Look forward to seeing pics - before they amalgamated, Phillip Webley and W & S Scott made many good quality single and double rifles for the trade, often ending up with more prestigious names on them

TH44

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Oldbrit
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: TH44]
      #223559 - 13/01/13 10:57 PM

The Webley was a retirement present to myself which I bought at an Holt’s auction. At the time I was looking for a double rifle and had visited a couple of auctions but hadn’t been satisfied with what I had seen. Fortunately I live within an hour’s drive of Holt’s main base and they had a rifle in their upcoming sale I was interested in, so I drove over with my wife to take a look.

Holt’s is a great place to visit, once you have established your bona fides, they lock you in the gun room and leave you to it. Provided you show due care they allow you to handle anything from junk to museum quality pieces. However, once I saw the double rifle in question I began to realise that what I wanted I couldn’t afford and what I could afford I didn’t want. Just at that point my wife pointed to a gun and said,

“Isn’t that a double rifle?”

I had to admit that, yes, indeed it was. She asked,

“Well, do you like that one?”

I picked the rifle up, examined it and I had to say that I liked it very much. Her response was,

“Buy that one then if you really like it.”

At that point you will all undoubtedly think I made a cardinal mistake because I said,

“I don’t think I’ll buy that one because it’s a Holland and Holland Royal Grade rifle and they’ve got an estimate of £30,000 on it.”

My wife went very pale. Fortunately, by this time I’d spotted the Webley and decided that the rifle and I could be very happy together.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Oldbrit]
      #223560 - 13/01/13 11:41 PM

Or...

As the old shooter was lying, dying he said to his best pal,

"Jack, do one last thing for me. Whatever happens, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them."

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greenshoots
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Oldbrit]
      #223561 - 14/01/13 12:05 AM

that is a very nice rifle


greenshoots

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Even
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Posts: 175
Loc: Canada
Re: Webley and Scott [Re: greenshoots]
      #234115 - 12/08/13 09:29 PM

Hi Gentlemen,

Apologies for the LONG delay getting some pictures. It involved traveling about 20 hours or so at highway speeds, to the fellow who has the rifle's place, to take pictures myself :P Since I only get there a couple times a year... you get the picture.

Unfortunately, he can't find the action :/ He swears he will look more. He knows he has seen it in the last three years...in what box, who knows!

Anyway, here are the pictures. Any comments, or further information welcome.































Edited by Even (12/08/13 09:39 PM)

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Even
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Even]
      #234117 - 12/08/13 09:43 PM

It sounds like the only time they shot it, between forty and fifty years ago, they managed to use .44-40 :P Desperation, as there is no caliber marking on it. Can anyone think of a likely British cartridge in .44 or .45 caliber?

When he finds the action, I'll have it shipped up and do a chamber cast.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Even]
      #234118 - 12/08/13 09:57 PM


Some "similar" guns exist in Aus and are known as
Kangaoo Rifles.

I've seen them with Kangaroos and Emus on the side.

Around 450 cal, a small cartridge.

Will try to look up what the actual calibre is.

I know of one person who has one now so I might be able to
contact them and ask them what calibre it is.

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kuduae
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234129 - 13/08/13 02:05 AM

See Gun Digest # 46, 1992, pages 50-56. There is an article by Ross Simpson, "Kangaroo Rifles Then And Now". He shows and mentions several small "roo" cartridges once used for those critters, among them .450 No.1 Carbine, .450 No.1, .425 Webley and .442 long, .430 long. All these small cartridges were replaced in Australian use by American repeaters in .44-40.

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500Nitro
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: kuduae]
      #234133 - 13/08/13 03:31 AM


Kudae

Thanks

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Even
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Posts: 175
Loc: Canada
Re: Webley and Scott [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234238 - 14/08/13 11:16 AM

Thanks Kuduae and 500Nitro! Finally, a solid lead

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500Nitro
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Even]
      #234239 - 14/08/13 11:24 AM


Even

Have a look through different copies of COTW - Cartridges of the World.

From all the cartridge listings - which would allow
you to maybe match up the chamber via measurements with a
caliper - you might be able to find a reference as well.

Also worth doing a Google search, some interesting info
comes up.

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Oldbrit
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Re: Webley and Scott [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234265 - 14/08/13 11:07 PM

Richard Milner has all the sales daybook records for Webley.

This is the web site:

http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/

I think your gun may well pre-date the records he has but he may still be worth contacting.

Edited by Oldbrit (14/08/13 11:08 PM)

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Even
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Posts: 175
Loc: Canada
Re: Webley and Scott [Re: Oldbrit]
      #234273 - 15/08/13 02:25 AM

I may well end up doing that, and spending the research moneys, once I have the entire rifle, and its in my possession.

Thanks, Oldbrit Yes, seems a pretty low serial number.

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