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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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lancaster
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: mckinney]
#392245 - 30/06/25 02:19 PM

he died like a sportsman giving the lion king a fair chance

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Marrakai
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: mckinney]
#392277 - 03/07/25 01:30 PM

The Brit who died from a lion mauling on the Athi Plains was George Grey, brother of Edward Grey who later became British Foreign Secretary.
He was new to the game of riding lion but dismounted to receive the lion charge in traditional style. Unfortunately his 2 shots from the .280 Ross Sporter failed to achieve satisfactory conclusions!

He was hunting with Sir Alfred Pease at the time, author of "The Book of the Lion", who wrote about the incident in his personal diary. Capstick included the account verbatim in an Editor's Note in the preface to his Reprint Edition by the same name.

and...

As I'm sure you know mckinney, original Type A Mausers chambered for the .280 Ross were magnum length.
They do turn up occasionally, but you will need deep pockets!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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fjrdoc
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: Marrakai]
#392280 - 03/07/25 08:18 PM

Do we know if his demise was because of poor shot placement or poor bullet technology?

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mckinney
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: fjrdoc]
#392284 - 04/07/25 09:22 AM

It would be very interesting to read the account by Sir Pease. I wonder if the lion escaped?

Hello Marrakai - yes no doubt a Type A in .280 Ross would be out of reach unless one could be found in worn condition or on very favorable terms. I don't recall ever seeing one for sale in any condition.

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Huvius
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: mckinney]
#392288 - 05/07/25 03:10 AM

Yes, the 280 Ross TypeA is a rare item.
I had one which was retailed by George Gibbs and made on a square bridge magnum action.
It was a beautiful rifle but showed high pressure with loads that shot very nicely in another 280 we have which happens to be a Lancaster similar to the rifle in this thread.
The loading info I got from a Ross Seyfreid article but that Gibbs did not like them at all!
I’ll see if I can come up with a photo of the rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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85lc
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: Huvius]
#392289 - 05/07/25 04:08 AM

fjrdoc

I read that is was a combination of poor placement and poor bullet performance. I think the 1st bullet broke up in the lion's shoulder and the 2nd broke up it its nouth. Grey lived a day or so after the attack and died of his injuries.

I had a M1910 commercail Ross in 280 which was a very nice rifle.

--------------------
RB

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fjrdoc
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: 85lc]
#392290 - 05/07/25 04:20 AM

Thanks for the info 85lc. I have a Ross M1910 commercial rifle with the pop-up aperture sight on the rear bridge. I love the rifle and the cartridge. I'm thinking of taking it and my 256 Newton deer hunting in PA this year. My hunting theme will be veteran high-velocity rifles and cartridges

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93x64mm
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: fjrdoc]
#392292 - 05/07/25 05:55 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the info 85lc. I have a Ross M1910 commercial rifle with the pop-up aperture sight on the rear bridge. I love the rifle and the cartridge. I'm thinking of taking it and my 256 Newton deer hunting in PA this year. My hunting theme will be veteran high-velocity rifles and cartridges

And still give an account of themselves 100+ years later just as good as their modern equivalents the 7mm Rem Mag & 25-06

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: 93x64mm]
#392295 - 05/07/25 07:14 AM

A LOT of hunter deaths over the years due to poor bullet performance of copper and lead core bullets.
Barnes started off with .032 and .049" jackets for controlled expansion, eventually inspired to invent the monos that would expand AND penetrate.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroX
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: DarylS]
#392301 - 05/07/25 03:59 PM

I thought the idea of riding lions was to use the horse and gallop away from the charging lion? Or encourage a charge, dismount, and face the charge like a man!

As soon as I read the gentleman faced, on foot, a charging lion with a.280, I suspected misery might result. A .280 especially a hyper velocity cartridge, is unsuitable IMO. Particularly with unsuitable fragile bullets. Poor SP bullet performance was a reason a FMJ was often preferred.

I think a .350, .375, smaller a .318 WR, 250 gr bullets would have been better.

I don't understand hyper velocity cartridges in the days of poor SP performance and before scopes. A 7x64, 7x57, just as good. Maybe the theory, incorrect, that "velocity kills". Yes it does, through shock, but an adrenaline filled, maybe wounded lion, buffalo, won't be affected.

I need to do some ballistics re research on the .280 Ross. What projectile weight was the 3,000 fps achieved with? I suspect a lighter weight? For African hunting I'd be looking at the 160 to 180 gr range. And less velocity.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: NitroX]
#392309 - 06/07/25 12:08 AM

I'd suspect 3,000fps would only be achieved with a 140 gr. bullet, back then.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroX
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: DarylS]
#392311 - 06/07/25 12:26 AM

"
The result was the .280 Ross cartridge, produced and catalogued as the “.280 Rimless Nitro-Express” and head-stamped simply “280 Ross.”

Appearing in the first decade of the 20th Century, the .280 Ross offered the sporting world ballistics never been seen before. Here was a 7mm cartridge, loaded with a 140-grain spitzer soft-point, capable of reaching velocities of over 3,000 fps in the Ross Model 1910 sporter with a barrel length of 26″ to 28″. It was the ballistic marvel of its day. Kynoch catalogued the load as having a velocity of 3,010 fps, along with a 150-grain spitzer at 2,920 fps, a 160-grain, round nose HP load at 2, 910 fps and a 180-grain target match loading at 2,760 fps.
"

https://gunsmagazine.com/ammo/the-280-ross/

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: NitroX]
#392325 - 06/07/25 05:19 PM

well, this gentleman found his karma, thats all

9,3x62 , SN 3672
should it realy be so old? https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=20034504#img

reworked, no doubt

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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LRF
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: LRF]
#392329 - 06/07/25 09:25 PM

Quote:

This recent Kurz with the missing bolt in 300 Savage was purchased by a friend of mine. This is his second Kurz rifle. 45 years ago he purchased his first when I got a lead on one at a gunshow and he bought it. Now 45 years later I pointed this one out and again he bought it. He will remanufacture a 98 bolt to work in the Kurz. He has the first rifle to use as a pattern. The buyer, Mark, was one of the known custom gun metalsmiths of the latter 20th century but dropped out of that work to purse other endeavors in 1990's so hasn't been active in guns for some time. He sees this as a retirement project. Mark is most capable and we live very close so I will be able to update you folks on the project if you like, as it goes along. I am currently working on a 1918 Oberndorf Mauser action that Mark had for 30 years and never worked so I decided to see what I can do with it.

UPDATE: Mark and I picked up this rifle from the FFL dealer yesterday and it is every bit if not more then a real sleeper. It is very very nice. The action which is the valuable part of the gun is in excellent condition. The stock is not bad but has seen better days. We believe the barrel was replaced at some time that is why the 300 Sav chambering. Bore is near perfect. Yes it is missing the bolt but the process of making a new one has already started even before the rifle arrived yesterday. It will be a great project for Mark, a man who I assure you has the skills to accomplish the task.
I will update when appropriate

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lancaster
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: LRF]
#392331 - 06/07/25 11:08 PM

barrel could be original, 300 Savage was a common caliber in the kurz mauser

please keep us updated on the progess when making a new kurz bolt

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: lancaster]
#392333 - 06/07/25 11:12 PM

That IS interesting information, lancaster.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: DarylS]
#392348 - 08/07/25 01:30 AM

I knew .250 Savage was an original Kurz chambering but didn't know Mauser included the .300 Savage.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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lancaster
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: Marrakai]
#392349 - 08/07/25 03:59 AM

ok, you got me
seems I mixed it up with the 250 savage

--------------------
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.
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LRF
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: lancaster]
#392352 - 08/07/25 08:27 AM

Kurz originally came in 3 chamberings
.250/3000 (250 Savage)
8x51 k
6.5x54 k

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mckinney
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: LRF]
#392399 - 11/07/25 09:22 PM

True. I’m not aware of a factory Kurz in any caliber other than these three. An original sporter in any of these calibers or configurations would be quite a prize. But never say never with Mauser. Speed’s book shows an Afrika Model with long barrel in 8 x 51, which must be a singular rarity. He also shows a very nice Griffin and Howe sporter in .300 Savage built on an original Kurz Mauser action.

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85lc
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Re: Mauser rifles at auctions [Re: mckinney]
#392404 - 12/07/25 02:02 AM

Swing back to "high velocity cartridges, the following is a nice articel about the 280 Ross: https://gunsmagazine.com/ammo/the-280-ross/

Fjrdoc, your 1910 Ross sounds like a great rifle with the intergral peep sight. The 1910 commercial Ross was a great, well made gun. (Interesting that the rage in Europe seems to be for straight pull rifles.)

I shot my 280 Ross with some 0.287" bullets which I believe is the correct diameter though some people reported good accuracy with the standard 0.284" bullets.

John, you questioned the high velocity craze. From what I read, in the early 1900s, there were reports of outdoorsmen killing dangerous game with light, small diameter bullets fired at 3000fps. I believe Roy Chapman Andrews killed one or two tigers with an 1899 Savage in 22 IMP (22HP). I thinh Bell liked that cartridge.

Elmer Keith questioned the HV craze did some experimenting with 22 cal bullets, machined out of brass rods. (I guess one of teh first mono bullets).

The ballistics of the 280 Ross really matches that of the 7mm Remington maginum. With today's mono bullets, perhaps Mr. Grey would have killed the lion (standing there, shooting like a man.)

--------------------
RB

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