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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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TomN
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shot moving bullet in second barrell
      #218170 - 19/10/12 08:19 AM

It hit me toady that the load in the second barrell can move when the first is shot but how do they keep a load of shot in a shotgun form doing the samething? I know I have heard of over shot cards but is a small card shoved down on the shot going to keep it in place? And if so why wouldn't it work for a heavy bullet in the same manner or would this not work at all. It seams that a tight bullet would be easre to keep down than a load of lose shot pored down the bore and a card placed on to to keep it in. Tom N

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DarylSModerator
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: TomN]
      #218175 - 19/10/12 08:59 AM

Here's my take on it, Tom.

There is so much friction in all the wads and shot column that there is little or no movement form recoil. This is partially due to the fluid-type of recoil absorbsion of a charge of shot, where each individual pellet is very light in weight & thus not very susceptable to movement from the jarring of adjacent tube.

Even if a shot charge loosened a bit, the wads on the powder and most of the shot would still be in contact & would not make a dangerous looseness or 'space' like that which occurs with a bullet sliding forward off the powder charge.

The tight fitting patch on a round ball prevents it's movement the same way - due to friction.

Bullets did not become popular for hunting in DR's until the ctg. era, which was actually happening in Africa and India by the mid 1860's for rifles and even earlier with smoothbores - ie: Lefaucheau SideXSide pin-fires. The reasons for this are quite likely at least 2 fold.

Fixed ammunition not only allowed the use of hardened bullets which were needed to ensure deep penetration but also prevented the second barrel's bullet from moving foreward due to the recoil of the first tube fired. Fixed ammunition thus remedied two problems, that of the poor penetration of pure lead bullets on heavy game, and that of bullet moving foreard from recoil, thus presenting an obstruction to the very fast sporting powders of the day.

Making the 'bullets' of sufficient size to prevent movement had it's own problems. Even in the late 1850's, there was considerable trouble with 'jammed' or stuck bullets if the bullets were made fit the bores so close as to prevent movement from recoil.

I've personally shot quite a lot with bullets of a size as to engrave in the rifling upoin loading and with mechanically fitted bullets. I do not think they would move under recoil or normal loads, but would not think they'd remain hard against the powder of heavy hunting loads in large bores. If of a size to do serious work, that size itself would present much increased friction and resistance to loading. Self defeating system, comes to mind.
Sorry I strayed away from shot loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TomN
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: DarylS]
      #218177 - 19/10/12 09:14 AM

Daryl thanks I have never sean how a muzzle loading shot gun load was put together just though that if it was a 2 oz load of shot it woud have the same tendeseas to moving as a thight bullet and if so maby a over shot card wad would keep it in place. Tom N

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DarylSModerator
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: TomN]
      #218181 - 19/10/12 10:45 AM

Yeah- I don't know if the shot load would act as a single unit, ie: they'd be a mass weight behind the barrier and move it as a single object. Thus, I susept they'd act as a whole, being held behind the card, but I've not heard of any problems nor had any myself.

A few years back when testing my Brothers Manton 15 bore double ML shotgun, the load in the second tube never shifted from the recoil of the right barrel. His shot load, while fairly heavy for a 15 bore, was still only 1 1/8oz. thus not overly heavy. The 2 1/2 dram powder charge (68gr.) gave 72% at 25 yards, good for a cylinder bore. I use the same charge in my single shot 20 bore flinter, but with 1 ounce of shot only, for 85% to 87% paterns in it's slightly choked bore. Deadly on birds, clays or feathered.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoosier
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: DarylS]
      #218186 - 19/10/12 02:39 PM

My experience with a 10 ga. double was that even with 3 or 4 shots out of one barrel did not move the charge in the other barrel enough to detect. This was with 1 1/2 oz. of shot and 110 grains by volume of pyrodex. The thing to remember for over shot wads is that they need to be oversize in relation to the bore diameter. I use 9 ga. wads and they seem to work quite well.
In my double rifle a tight fitting ball / patch arrangemnt works also. I have no experience with conicals in mine as the rate of twist is pretty slow and will not stabilize or regulate with them.
I have not noticed movement in the off barrel with a tight patch and 80 grains of pyrodex- the rifle is a 58 cal.

--------------------
BigMike

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Supercracker
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: TomN]
      #218199 - 20/10/12 01:11 AM

Quote:

It hit me toady that the load in the second barrell can move when the first is shot but how do they keep a load of shot in a shotgun form doing the samething?



Short answer, you don't. It will move after a few shots. A couple of times I have fired one barrel and then when I lowered the gun had the shot from the unfired charge roll out. However, the way in which you reload a double ML shotgun helps preclude it. While you're reloading the R barrel the RR goes down the L barrel between uses. While you do this you're retamping the unfired charge. So the unfired charge will be reset in the bore during reloading. This is how I, and pretty much everyone I've talked to does it with doubles.

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Dphariss
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: TomN]
      #218250 - 22/10/12 02:52 AM

"Naked" bullets loaded in a ML are never "tight". They are sized to the bore when loaded.
Cloth patched balls or picket bullets are far harder to move since the compressed fabric grips the bore very well.
I would never use a Maxi or REAL etc in a double rifle.
Then we need to realize that the bullet can likely be 2" off the powder with no damage to the gun though accuracy will suffer. But 6" could be bad.
So do some testing. See what actually occurs in YOUR situation.


Dan

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TomN
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: Dphariss]
      #218332 - 23/10/12 01:29 PM

Thanks for the replys I was asking as my .72 crosses and I think that I need a heaver bullet to uncross them but you can,t get a round ball heaver so would have to go with a bullet. I though about having a mold made that was a round ball on each end and have a center that was say 1/4" and using a cloth patch then though about shot in a shot gun and maby one could do it the same with a rifle and keep the bullet in place but guess not.
Tom N.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: shot moving bullet in second barrell [Re: TomN]
      #218347 - 24/10/12 03:48 AM

My own Kodiak crossed with 80gr.2F, the right shoting high, left low but with 100gr.2F, both tubes shot into the same group at 50 yards, crossing by an inch and a bit at 100.

With 110gr. 2f shot they perfectly parallel, 1 1/8" apart, then with 120gr. they crossed again, only this time, the right shot low and the left shot high.

Not only changing the load, but changing patch lube will also effect accuracy and regulation as well as might, the addition of wads, etc. Changing multiple loading components might get the rifle behaving.

I would exhaust the variables with round balls, before attempting a slug. Slugs will NOT improve it's killing properties.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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