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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Mods to a Bakial 45-70
      #217882 - 12/10/12 04:09 PM

Ive owned and still own some nice DRs; but I also have a couple Bakials (30-06 O/U, 30-06 SxS, and 45-70 SxS). Ive also got a chance to buy a second 45-70 SxS at a decent price. That got me thinking about some mods.

I love my "real" DRs; and love to hunt with them, even here in the US (9.3 x 74R is fine for Wild Boar--for that matter so is 470NE); but I sometimes hesitate to take them into the woods during foul weather. Thats where the Bakials come in, they are the AKs of double rifles. When I hesitate to take a rifle that cost $10K (+) into the mud, a Bakial that costs under $1000 is easy to grab.

I recall an article about someone rechambering a Pedersoli Kodiak DR in 45-70 to 45-120. Just comparing the looks of 45-70 to 45-120, makes the conversion worth considering. Im really not sure theres enough practical ballistic difference between the two cartridges to make a differnce; but carrying two 3 inch rounds between the fingers of my left hand just feels so much more "DR" than 45-70s.

The conversion is relatively simple, or at least seems simple, a straight reamer to lengthen the chambers. Now I know simple isnt always simple; but it worked in a single shot 45-70 to 45-120 I had done, so Im thinking it "should work" in the Bakial.

Thoughts??? Suggestions???

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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hunter_angler
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Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 104
Loc: Grand Marais, Michigan (home i...
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #217900 - 13/10/12 03:32 AM

Yep I have even heard of the Pedersoli .45-70 being converted to .450 No. 2 NE. I think it should be relatively simple to deepen the chambers on a .45-70 double to accept .45-90 or .45-120, maybe depending on the taper of the barrels. And, handloading to pressure levels acceptable in the Baikal, I would think you could get a significant performance increase with the larger case capacity. I'm sure a gunsmith familiar with Baikals, doubles and break action guns in general could tell you a lot more. I believe Daryl S. who frequents this forum is fairly expert on loading these particular cartridges to maximum potential, given the pressure limitations.

One thing to keep in mind is that those Baikal doubles weigh in at only around 7 pounds. It won't take too much hotrodding to make them light for cailiber.

--------------------
Semper Paratus

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: hunter_angler]
      #231882 - 30/06/13 08:03 AM

That's an interesting thought. How strong are the Baikal's?

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savage458
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Reged: 16/04/12
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231900 - 30/06/13 11:38 PM

Ckhobart

I shoot my 45-70 Baikal with modern loads, and Ruger level custom-loads, and it functions perfect. My friends 30-06 same. Now 30-06 is "High Intensity cartridge, loaded to around 60.000 PSI. Now, does that tell you anything about Baikal DR ?

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: savage458]
      #231958 - 02/07/13 03:06 AM

Quote:

Ckhobart

I shoot my 45-70 Baikal with modern loads, and Ruger level custom-loads, and it functions perfect. My friends 30-06 same. Now 30-06 is "High Intensity cartridge, loaded to around 60.000 PSI. Now, does that tell you anything about Baikal DR ?



haha that does sound great! Is it strong enough to handle more powerful loads like the .45-110 or longer cartridges should you rechamber it?

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #231982 - 02/07/13 10:47 AM

Gentlemen:
I had one of these Baikals for a while.
Now, before your collective eyebrows go up too high, let me explain:
Firstly, it was far-and-away the nicest example I had ever seen! Do a Google-Images search world-wide and see if you can find one that even comes close to this:



Secondly, I wanted to check them out for myself, and the easiest way was to acquire one. Unfortunately I sold it on when I needed the funds for more interesting vintage British hardware, but not without regret.
The examples sold in Australia (well, mine at least!) had "MR-221 Remington" etched on the action-bar, but the name was obliterated by crude scroll engraving before it left the factory, and Baikal MP-221 was etched on the underside of the bar.
But here's the important bit: it had the pressure data etched on the side of the left barrel.



Regrettably, I did not photograph this, as there have been endless e-discussions on the topic of Baikal double rifle pressures, and one is forced to conclude that those landed on the eastern side of the pond had no such markings. Nevertheless, it reads:

"Warning Maximum Operating
Pressure 2200BAR or 31900HST"

My limited understanding of such things is that HST is PSI, give or take. Can anyone clarify this?

Thats a pretty serious .45-70 load, significantly above the 'government' factory loading. Although comparable with most commercial Marlin loads, it is still well short of their maximum capability with top handloads.

Also, the barrels on my MP-221 were step tapered right in front of the chambers, making rechambering to a longer cartridge rather inadvisable.

Hope this is of some interest.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Marrakai]
      #232008 - 03/07/13 01:24 AM

Not an expert on anything - I can read a loading manual though, and tend to keep fairly well up to date on them as well.

A 7 pound rifle, for me, would kick more than quite enough with a 400gr. bullet making 2,000fps or a 350gr. at 2,150fps.

I would not need 'more' of that fun from a longer case. A 3 1/4" .45 case has a huge COOL quotient. The longer cases, when loaded to the lower pressures and needing case fillers can become more difficult to load with smokeless powders. Dan Pharris can attest to this from his experience with the long chamberings in Shihlo Sharps rifles and the rung chambers that resulted from improper loading techniques.

A longer chambering would deliver higher speeds at the same pressure, but not enough higher to make any difference on American Game.

Hodgdon's Annual Manuals are very much worthwhile (to purchase EVERY year for their articles and new powder data) and therein will you find data you can use for this and most any other .45/70 rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #232026 - 03/07/13 11:35 AM

Yep!! Why rechamber, when the 45-70 will do everything needed? Believe me, much fewer headaches, re: case capacity, etc., and it will do everything on this continent you need. OK- my 450 3 1/4 BPE, uses 3/4" of filler to get reliable burn, the 500 2 1/2 is OK with 1/2" filler. If you want a bigger case, that's fine, but understand you won't gain anything but a big case, with modern powders. Black is another story, but with a 450 3 1/4 it can boot the heck out of you!

+1 with Marrakai, a longer chamber may actually be a detriment in the reality department. Case expense/ availability, actual performance gain ( loss? ), etc.

My 2 cents worth--- Doug

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: gungadoug]
      #232027 - 03/07/13 11:46 AM

Please don't misunderstand my opinion though. I've had a couple ctgs. with 3 1/4" cases - both .45 and .50. Neither was really pleasant to shoot, although the .45 did not beat me up like the .50 Sharps did. The .458 3 1/4" weighed 14 pounds with it's heavy tapered 1 1/4" down to 1 1/8" long Hoch barrel. Fairly easy to shoot, it was accurate as well, compared to my bro's light weight Big Timber rifle in .45 3 1/4". He actually would only shoot 100gr. of 2F in it and still complained about the recoil when shooting targets. He never complained of the recoil when shooting grouse, moose, or the Lynx. Both my 3 1/4" were passable for a few shots. The .50 became nasty when testing ammo, 135gr.2F to 170gr. 1F and 40 to 60 shots in a day at the range. I still have a bit of that 1F - ICI - very dense (heavy).

For a 7 pound gun, I'd look no further than the .45-2 1/10th".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #232140 - 05/07/13 07:25 AM

Hrm. Interesting stuff fellas.

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234247 - 14/08/13 04:42 PM

what, no .458 lott? hahaha

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234338 - 16/08/13 05:47 PM

So, since I'm not going to be able to order the book for a few weeks, I really would like to know: Do you think a Baikal's back end would be able to handle the pressure from a .458 Lott? I'm skeptical about something like a Gibbs, but still. It's a place to start. 45-70 is low enough pressure that the big bores on the same action sort of scare me, though the Baikals are made in .30-06

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234339 - 16/08/13 06:34 PM

http://eaacorp.com/portfolio-item/mp221-side-by-side-break-action-rifle-baikal/

Hrm. I bet the back ends are the same. .45-70 is a wee bit too short to ream for .458 I imagine regardless =P What'd be a better buy? Hoping I can get one pro-formed through work for cheapish.

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Well_Well_Well
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Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #234369 - 17/08/13 07:03 PM

Interestingly, I have mused for some time about converting a 30-06 to a 300H&H flanged, for no reason other than I can.

The question is though, it looks to me as though the 300 will clean up the 30-06 chamber fully, but its that much longer I'm wondering if it may create a weakness in front of the mono block.

Thoughts?

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #234388 - 18/08/13 02:10 AM

Don't even consider lengthening the chambers on your gun without taking it to a Qualified Gunsmith. Let him measure the barrel diameters and let him decide if it would be safe or not. I would not personally want to shoot a Biakal 45-70 that had been lengthened to more than Maybe a 45-90. Bob

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Ckhobart
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Reged: 26/06/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Reno, NV
Re: Mods to a Bakial 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #234408 - 18/08/13 06:35 AM

ahh read your other response as well. 10-4

Edited by Ckhobart (18/08/13 06:37 AM)

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